Nourish & Empower

The Audacity of Imposter Syndrome

• Jessica Coviello & Maggie Lefavor • Season 2 • Episode 39

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Your brain can call you a fraud in seconds, even when you’ve done the work, earned the credential, or lived the experience. We get honest about what imposter syndrome actually feels like, starting with a surprisingly relatable moment: going back to the gym after time away and feeling sure everyone is watching, judging, and waiting for you to mess up. That same inner narrative can show up anywhere, from motherhood to friendships to big career steps.

We also dig into why clinicians like therapists and dietitians are especially prone to imposter syndrome. Helping other people with emotional regulation, eating disorder recovery, and anxiety management doesn’t mean we never struggle ourselves, and that disconnect can create shame. We talk about how expectations and perfectionism fuel self-doubt, why “I don’t know, I’ll research it” can be a sign of professionalism, and how to challenge the “I’m not qualified” story with tangible evidence, real feedback, and a more grounded view of your skills.

Then we tackle the accelerant most of us can’t avoid: social media comparison. When engagement, followers, and curated highlight reels become the measuring stick, it’s easy to feel behind or “not good enough,” even when you’re living a full, real life offline. We close with practical ways to build internal validation without over-relying on reassurance, plus a reminder that feelings aren’t facts.

If you want more conversations like this, subscribe, share the show with someone who needs it, and leave a rating or review so more people can find Nourish and Empower.


Show notes:

Trigger warning: this show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a Registered Dietitian, Licensed Mental Health Provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes. Listener discretion is advised.


Resource links:

Hilltop Behavioral Health: https://hilltopbehavioralhealth.com/ 

Alliance for Eating Disorders: https://www.allianceforeatingdisorders.com/ 

ANAD: https://anad.org/

NEDA: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

NAMI: https://nami.org/home

Action Alliance: https://theactionalliance.org/

NIH: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/


How to find a provider: 

https://map.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

https://www.healthprofs.com/us/nutritionists-dietitians?tr=Hdr_Brand


Suicide & crisis awareness hotline: call 988 (available 24/7)


Eating Disorder hotline: call or text 800-931-2237 (Phone line is available Monday-Thursday 11 am-9 pm ET and Friday 11 am-5 pm ET; text line is available Monday-Thursday 3-6 pm ET and Friday 1-5 pm ET)


If you are experiencing a psychiatric or medical emergency, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.


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Health Mission And Sponsor Note

SPEAKER_03

Join us as we redefine, reclaim, and restore the true meaning of health.

SPEAKER_02

Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, and body image. This is Nourish and Empower. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health, specializing in eating disorder treatment. Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting.

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Visit www.hilltopbehavioralhealth.com because healing happens here.

Trigger Warning And Important Disclaimer

SPEAKER_02

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the Nourish and Empower Podcast. Today, Maggie and I are going to do a dive into imposter syndrome. Trigger warning: we are identifying the following triggers that will be discussed but are not limited to eating disorders, mental health, and imposter syndrome. Listener discretion is advised. This show is not medical nutrition or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a registered dietitian, a licensed mental health provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes.

True Crime Comfort And Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_02

I always want to go dun dun dun, like we're law and order after that. Always.

SPEAKER_03

Not a law and order person. I don't think I've ever seen it. So wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Did you just tell me you've never seen Law and Order? I feel like you don't know this about me. That I so I can't watch anything that I think can happen to me. That's fair. That's fair. So I'm like not a true crime person in any way, like podcasts, books, shows, anything. Because if I I can watch things that are like scary if I think that it's like totally implausible that it can happen to me. But if it's something that I think can happen to me, which I feel like a lot of like law and order stuff probably could. Oh yeah, no, I I wouldn't sleep. So I can't, I don't watch anything like that.

SPEAKER_02

No, see, I'm the exact opposite, which just truly makes us our yin and yang. If like I can't do things where my imagination runs wild, like I will always forever think that there's a monster or somebody watching me in my closet. I am 35 and forever someone is in my closet watching me. Like when we go to bed, the door has to be closed because I'm afraid I'm gonna wake up and a body will be there watching us. Like I what like I just if my imagination can run with it, however, the the mind is where I am just like so interested in. So like I find like comfort in watching all like the true crimes on TV or like all the weird documentaries that are on Netflix. Matt can't stomach it. Matt's like, you're so depressing of a human. And I'm like, no, I love it. And then I like it gets my rocks off. Like, I freaking love that stuff. But yeah, no, you and Matt are very the same. I'm like, give me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, I feel like I feel like they're always like, oh, like millennial women like love true crime stuff. And I'm like, that is the one thing.

SPEAKER_02

I just Maggie's like, I do not fit the stereotype.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like in every other way, I probably do, but in that one thing, I'm like, I can't do anything that I think could happen to me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, that's fair. That's very fair.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that is very fair, which is why I just stay in my little Gilmore girls bubble and watch nothing else. But I love, and do you love Bravo? So I'm actually not a Bravo person. Uh, I mean, I like reality TV, but I'm not a Bravo person. I watch like I I grew up like watching The Bachelor and like Survivor and like all that kind of stuff. And then I like the Netflix dating shows, but I don't really watch anything Bravo. I never have.

SPEAKER_01

Because you know, and then I promise we will get on topic, but this is going to my brain.

SPEAKER_02

But Liana, Liana, I always forget how to say her name. We love her. We introduced, we interviewed, yes, the therapist. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. The trauma therapist. She posted the other day on her socials of being like, did you ever think not verbatim, but like, did you ever think about that if you love like the drama shows and all that, it's because your cer your like nervous system is not regulated and it attaches to problems like that, because like like drama, like a like the housewives and like really like emotionally unregulating things like that. And she was like, That's because your right your nervous system lives off of drama, but it's not your drama, so it feels soothing to a certain degree, and it feels like home. So you feel regulated, even though it's regulated within something unhealthy, because that's where you're used to being. And I was like, and so that's the stuff that I love, and I feel like I get that from really messed up crime stuff.

SPEAKER_03

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I know I love her. Oh my god, I love her.

SPEAKER_03

I always love her. Yeah, no, she's great. Her stuff is great, but that's yeah, that's a super interesting. What's her handle again?

SPEAKER_02

It's like your trauma therapist or your favorite trauma therapist, something along those lines. A genius woman that she is, yes. Yeah, your trauma dot therapist.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, she's great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I love her.

SPEAKER_03

But any who's imposter syndrome.

A Gym Comeback Sparks Imposter Feelings

SPEAKER_02

Imposter syndrome, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

What made you come up with this topic?

SPEAKER_02

Because I felt it over the weekend, Maggie. Okay. Well, I'm just gonna be honest with you, and I'm actually well, it is sort of kind of like on a very small scale. Something I was posting today. Well, I guess technically today is Monday, but this is going out Wednesday, so Monday. Oh yes, but Saturday is when I when I felt the imposter syndrome. Because you know me, I love exercising. Like I love going to the gym, I love being able to lift, like my butt and my thighs hurt so much because I did legs and I missed this feeling of like my bot, like I can feel what my body did. And I really hate when my husband is right 99% of the time. Because Matt will always be like, You miss going to the gym. You always feel did you hear him?

SPEAKER_00

Christopher's. Oh, he's babbling in the background. I wasn't sure if that was gonna pick up.

SPEAKER_02

But he was like, You miss going to the gym. I know how much you loved going to the gym. Like, even for like my ADHD brain and my anxious brain, like going starting my day off with a workout just like already brings me down to an equilibrium. And I feel sane 99% of the time that I do that. So he was like, just we can get back into the swing of things, like it's gonna be great. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Constantly push it off, constantly push it off, constantly push it off. Because going into a gym is intimidating. I don't care who you are. The first time you walk into a gym, whether it's the first time you start working out ever, or if it's, you know, you've taken a hiatus for whatever reason, it feels uncomfortable going in, right? It's like you riding a bike after even at 35. If I were to get on a bike right now, I wouldn't have imposter syndrome, but I would be like, Well, what the hell am I doing right now? Like it would just like because I haven't, I don't can't tell you the last time I rode a bike. But so I felt so, anyways, so I went to the gym. I was like, you know what? Fine. Matt was like, the baby's sleeping, I'll stay home. You go to the gym. Enjoy yourself. So I was like, okay, fine. So I went and I was so nervous about going, and I just felt like I had to try this all over again. I knew what I was going to do because I have an app because I can't think about the workouts. I need someone to tell me what to do. Don't ask me. Don't other like I can't be the one to figure it out. And so it was nice. But going there, I had such angst because I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna go in and like remember what to do. I was nervous that people were gonna look at me and be like, she's using 10 pounds to squat. Yes, I was because I didn't know what it was going to feel like, I didn't know if it would be too heavy. Honestly, I didn't know what was gonna be too heavy, what was gonna feel good. I had no idea. And 10 pounds was perfect. And once I started going, I was so much better. But I was very nervous to go and I felt like an imposter. So then I was like, this would be great to talk about because therapists can also feel that way too, even though we don't talk about it, like clinicians also struggle.

Why Clinicians Feel Like Frauds

SPEAKER_03

Why do you think that is? Why do you feel like I mean, obviously, we are clinicians, so a lot of people around us are clinicians, but I feel like I do see this a lot. So, why do you think clinicians in particular are vulnerable to imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_02

I'll probably say for me, I feel like being someone who is assisting in people's lives of what does healing look like? Like, right, I'm not making your decisions, I'm not telling you what to do with your life, and I'm going to see your patterns, I'm gonna call you out on your stuff, I'm going to validate you, I'm going to celebrate you. And if I'm able to see all of these different things and help people determine right from wrong and help people determine what they want versus where their anxiety lies, I can't always do that for myself. So then I can feel like, well, am I an imposter for being able to assist people in doing all these things? But then I can't even do it for myself, right? Like if we think about emotional regulation, I'm not great at it. I'll be the first to say I have my moments of being very good at it. And if I know that like a trigger for my childhood, or if Matt and I are having a conversation, I'm 9.99% going to be very reactive with my husband. And I've worked very hard on it and I'm not as reactive. But then if I'm thinking to myself, if I'm thinking to myself, okay, client, let's talk about emotional regulation. These are the tip skills, these are the, you know, checking the facts. How does it feel in your body? When do you know you've hit your like your tipping point? Like I can do all these those things with everybody else, but then I can't do it for myself. AMI a phony. So I think that's probably where clinician can feel vulnerable to that. Because if I'm very good at helping you see the light, why am I in the dark?

SPEAKER_03

But so many clinicians feel this way. And yet they are so accomplished, they are so successful, they do have the education, the you know, work experience, the years and years and years of experience. So, how do you think clinicians can challenge imposter syndrome?

Challenge The Story With Evidence

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think one of the things, right, like even thinking about it for myself. Would I talk to, like, what would I say to a client? Right. And that's even something that like Matt and I talk about too. He's like, okay, if your client was feeling this right now, what would you say to your client? And sometimes I really hate when he brings my own therapy skills into our conversations because I'm like, let me be toxic for five seconds. Thank you so much. However, we always need someone in our life to hold our boundaries when we are unable to. And my husband is very good at that. Thankfully, annoyingly. Thank you. And so I feel like we can always say to ourselves, like, what would we tell a client? Like, what is the sympathy we would give somebody else? What are the caring words we would say? And like really check the facts. Like, am I actually an imposter? No. Like every therapist has to go to graduate school, graduate school. We have to obtain and lit and graduate with a degree in therapy, whether it's social work, whether it's becoming an LPC, whether you go and get your become a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a psy D or a PhD, like whatever it is. You have to get an nth degree. You have to do a lot of work for that. You have hours and hours of clinical training, of courses, of papers, of exams. Like you're not just graduating from you know your undergrad and being like, yeah, I want to help someone. It's not you're no, there's a lot of work that goes into it and the amount of continuing educations that we have to do, right? And like, say I want to work with people with OCD, I have to get specialized in that, right? Like even with eating disorders. Yes, you can have a plethora of experience, and there's a licensure that you can or a certification that you can have and hold to show that you've done all of the work. It's so facto. Your history, your efforts, everything that you have to stand behind you shows that you're not an imposter because you've done the work. I also wonder, too, therapists don't right now in this world, therapy has a better rap than it ever has. And so I also wonder too, and I just had this thought like literally as I'm it's coming out of my mouth. Like, I also wonder if part of the imposter syndrome is that like our our profession is never solely, oh my God, you're a therapist. A lot of people question what we do. So I don't, so I also wonder if part of the imposter syndrome is like, well, I constantly have to explain to people why it is I do what I do, and I have to explain to people why therapy is such a good thing. And if I have to explain myself is is what I do real. Not real, but like I can understand it's not very like securing, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

I understood the first part a lot, and I felt like that was a really good point, and then I lost you a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

Like I feel if we always have to explain, if we always have to explain why we're why we work, is it diluting the work that we do? And is that dilution causing us to feel like an imposter, right? Because if a doctor is saying, if you hear that someone's a neurosurgeon, you're not like, oh my God, are you really? Like, but really, what do you do? Like, is neurosurgery really working? Like, we don't question that profession or that they got the education or things of that nature. It's oh my god, you're a neurosurgeon. Like you went through all that schooling, you did all these things, but for a therapist, there's more so of like, but does therapy really work? So then you have to like aggressively try and convince people. And in that convincing, do you then feel like a phony?

SPEAKER_03

I understand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And not the best at explaining things. So that also could have.

SPEAKER_03

That made sense. Yeah. No, and it's such a good point. And I also think too, well, two, two kind of thoughts. One is like for dietitians experiencing imposter syndrome, I feel like this goes back to what we talked about recently when we had Mia on, which is there are hundreds of thousands of subtopics when it comes to nutrition. Like you cannot be an expert in every single one of them. And so I think that could go two directions. That could lead people to feeling like an imposter and not knowing the answer to a question somebody asks, or not feeling like they, you know, know something specific. Or that could lead to people saying, Hey, I don't know, you know, know that specifically, or I want to look up the research behind that and I'll get back to you. You know, with the confidence that can come in there in order to really challenge that imposter syndrome. So I feel like that's a big piece of it, I see with dietitians. And then the other thing I was thinking about while you were speaking too is I think so much of imposter syndrome is about expectations. And I think a lot of people have expectations that if you're in a certain career, then that may, you know, kind of reflect into this quote unquote perfectionism in your life in that specific area. But if we think about that, because this happens a lot where all people say, like, I'll say, Oh, I'm a dietitian, and they'll be like, oh my gosh, you must eat so healthy. You know, like that's like always the first thing people say, right? Which is like a strange thing to say, number one, you know, a very complicated answer. I can give back to that. But it's sort of like there's an expectation of, oh, if you're in this career, then that must reflect back into your personal life. But I don't think we have that same expectation in other ways, where it's like no one's expecting a doctor to be in absolute perfect health for the entirety of their life, right? Like we understand that like people are going to have different health conditions all throughout their life. Or there's times where, like, let's say somebody is, I don't know, let's say they do something with like finance, for example, and then like they have, you know, they've what?

SPEAKER_02

A gambling addiction.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Like there's, yeah, like there's so many, you know, different aspects where it's like, yeah, you can do something as your in your career that yes can have an impact on your life, but I think perfectionism plays such a big role into the expectations people have. And then that just like lights the the fuel in the fire of imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Cause like, even if we think about it, right? Like I live really close to a hospital. And if I think about the amount of times I've seen hospital employees in some form of a scrub, white coat, whatever, outside smoking cigarettes or vapes. But do we ever question when we go and see a doctor as to whether or not they're doing drugs, they smoke, they drink alcohol? Like, we don't ever question it. We just go in and we think, help me, doc. So, like it is true. There are like all of like so many different professions have different outlooks on them.

SPEAKER_04

When like not fair.

SPEAKER_03

So, okay, so let me ask you this then. When somebody's brain is saying they're not qualified, whether it's like a work-related thing or it's somebody experiencing imposter syndrome, like you gave your example of going to the gym or people could experience imposter syndrome outside of work in their personal life, what evidence should somebody look for to challenge that thought of your brain saying you're not qualified, you're a phony, you're an imposter.

SPEAKER_02

I would probably say first look for tangible examples, right? So for me, if I feel like I'll use both the gym and I'll use my job. So, like, am I a good therapist? Or like, am I qualified to be a therapist? So then I would look at those two questions and I would say, am I qualified? I went to grad school, I had a great GPA. GPA doesn't necessarily matter, but like just thinking to myself of what would matter to me. I had a great GPA. I graduated with honors, I got a job out of grad graduating. I have assisted so many clients. I have great stories. I continue my continuing education. I've looked into certifications. Like, am I qualified? The answer black and white is yes. If I then think to myself of like, am I a good therapist? I then think of what I've heard from clients, right? And like those are tangible things that would just help me in an anxious moment of, okay, I know that clients have said thank you. I know clients have said I've never experienced a space where I can just be authentically me, or like I've never had someone care about me so much. I've never had someone just sit and listen. I've never had, I've never had, I've never had. To me, I am qualified. I am a good therapist. So I would say first, what like what are the tangible things? Then I would go to feelings. And the reason why I would go tangible first is because a lot of times we get more rooted in facts than emotions. And part of that is a good thing, in my opinion, because feelings aren't facts and we feel like an imposter, right? And so we're trying to identify how it is false. So that's why I would go tangible logic first. Then I would go to like, what do you feel? I feel great as a therapist. I love going to work every single day. I'm never dreading it. I'm constantly feeling like I have great sessions. Yes, there are there are days where I'm like, oh, did I push that client too hard? Or like, oh, like, was that session even meaningful enough? And that's the give and take of the job, right? Like sometimes those things happen. So I feel like if you can then say, like, how do you feel while you do it, and you're getting something positive out of it? To me, that's a good sign. You know what I mean? Like, I don't love, you know, mowing a lawn. So I'm not gonna mow a lawn. So, you know, like I I don't know. I don't even know if that like made sense in this context of the conversation, but like I just, you know, I just I don't. Know, like to me, that that just makes sense, and that's how I would challenge it. And that's how I would think of what are you know how can I prove that I'm not an imposter? And it was the same with the gym. I know in my head logically that the gym makes me feel good, it helps me mentally, it helps me emotionally. I know that during these moments, I like when I go into the gym, I knew I felt confident going to the gym before Christopher. I knew I felt confident going in with a plan and working out, walking out and being like, woo, starting my day. And we were golden, right? I know what my body is capable of lifting because to me, the joy of working out is feeling what my body is capable of and watching the weights increase. Like I love seeing how strong I am. So, like, that's always my motivation of going to the gym. So then I always, so I think about that, right? And I remember feeling like an imposter when I started going back to the gym. And then I remembered that the imposter syndrome went away once I allowed myself to recognize my capabilities and my abilities. So if we do that in our moments of, okay, have I felt this way before? And what was the trajectory of that? Like how did things transition? And if you see that you are on a very like on a similar path, and you realize that you just had to get over that hump of anxiety, there you go. You're not an imposter. You just have to overcome the the feeling because it is a feeling, so it's not a fact, and we can overcome them.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like too, because I love that you said the tangible, the feelings. And then I think there's an element where we can bring other people into it too. Because I was thinking of it more in like a work context, but obviously there's so many different contexts of this, which is I think everybody has a supervisor, you know, in some capacity, right? So somebody, whether that's like clinical supervision, where you have a supervisor, you know, kind of affirming something that you've done or helping you work through something, or it's not in a clinical setting, but maybe it's like a, you know, you're a teacher in a school and you have a supervisor who you're able to kind of say, Hey, this is the lesson we're working on. What do you think of this? Like bounce ideas off of. But I feel like that's like the the third element of it too, is like we have the internal pieces and then we have the external pieces here as well.

SPEAKER_02

100%. 100%

Praise, Promotions, And Core Beliefs

SPEAKER_02

I agree with that. Because there are, and listen, everybody loves validation and reassurance, right? It's never to say that you can't go and seek those things, it's you have to balance it out with your own identifications of personal reassurance and validation. Because if we're always seeking external without allowing ourselves to feel it internally, then our imposter syndrome might continue to happen because we're not allowing ourselves to feel real. We can't become rooted in other people's opinions because then we're not allowing ourselves to see for ourselves. Side note, I'm obsessed with the color of your water bottle. It is a neon green for everybody that cannot see this, and I'm literally obsessed.

SPEAKER_03

This was the color of my room going up, and it drove my family insane.

SPEAKER_02

Stop! I love that. Did you also have pink in there? Remember when we were kids when pink and green was like a huge hit?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I did. Yeah, my comforter. Is it in here? I don't know. I'm at my parents right now. It's somewhere, it's somewhere here. I've seen it recently, but it was it had like pink and green, like these big circles all over it. But my wall color was literally like a fern colored green. It was so bright. And like the second I moved out, my parents repainted over it. They couldn't wait to paint over those walls. That's hysterical. I love that. I love that. But okay, I did have another question for you though, because I feel like accomplishments and when people receive like an accomplishment or an accolade, that can often be a time that actually fuels imposter syndrome rather than fixes it. And so I'm curious of like why you feel like that happens because I think that's such a common example where people will say, like, well, I just got promoted at work, and then like that'll fuel the imposter syndrome, or they'll like they're receiving an award and they'll be like, Well, I don't really deserve this, you know? And I feel like it fuels all of that. So why when we have a success, do we kind of dismiss that or diminish that and we then fuel the imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_02

To me, I feel like that's such a deeper rooted struggle that we're unwilling to touch. Because to me, I feel like if we're unwilling to receive the compliment, our our value, our core belief, our, you know, yeah, what's the word? Like the way we view ourselves, our personal narrative. How many different ways can I say the same thing? It's so belittled that we can't even see the writing on the wall. Like we're so nervous to be confident about ourselves. We're so nervous to see something positive that it that we could be the highest achieving person, but we'll never believe it because we refuse to allow it to, because of such a deep core like belief that we have about ourselves, which could come from anything, right? Like it could come from us hearing from somebody like you'll never amount to nothing. So physically we are working so hard to amount to something, but because our core belief is I will never amount to anything, it doesn't matter how high I can get in the company, I could be a CEO, but I'll always tell you I don't deserve it and I don't know how I got here because I was always told I was nothing. Right? Like some people will go spiteful and they'll say all the things that I could with my sailor mouth go ahead and say, I'm trying so hard not to give hand gestures or say things, and you're welcome. And you know, so some people are gonna say, watch me. You think I'm nothing, watch me. Some people will go, I don't want to be nothing, I don't believe I can be anything, but they have such a such a work ethic, such a drive that they will push to achieve and never believe that they deserve it. And then there are some people that will hear these things and go, you're right, I'm nothing, and will literally do nothing with their lives because that core belief has just completely diminished and depleted any amount of internalization that then became I don't have the effort to do things. And now listen, I am not like an imposter syndrome guru by any stretch of the meaning, right? So, like, could I also be completely off base 100%? This is just my take on it as me as a professional. But even saying that, do I feel like an imposter because I had to vacationalize and I had to put out there that I am not a person, right? So maybe I just proved everybody's point by telling everyone I'm not a, you know, this isn't my specialty, so don't take my word for it. But that's my cushion.

SPEAKER_00

So there you go.

SPEAKER_03

That's so funny. I was like, I felt like we were like looping around that, and I was waiting for you to acknowledge it. Full circle, full circle. Okay, I have another question for you, but I kind of have an example that goes along with it. So yeah,

Humility Versus Imposter Syndrome

SPEAKER_03

okay. So the example is, and this is relevant because it literally happened yesterday and you don't even know this. So my cousin and her fiance asked me to officiate their wedding yesterday. I know, I'm sorry. That's so exciting! Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. It is so exciting, it's super sweet. I was completely and utterly shocked. Like I was not expecting it at all. They handed me a gift and I was like, it's not my birthday. I didn't have anything happen. I, you know, I was very shocked, but I'm I'm super, super flattered and and like feel really honored. Yeah. And I I want to know the difference between imposter syndrome and like a normal healthy amount of like humility or kind of I don't know what the other word would be, but like right, like so, okay. So let's just say like thoughts that come through my minds, right? It's like, wow, they could have asked anybody, you know, why did they ask me? Or I really want to do a good job, right? This is a really big responsibility. I don't feel imposter syndrome because I've I don't even know if I could in this example, right? Like I've never done it before, I don't have experience with it. So, like to me, there isn't any imposter syndrome, but I think there's like a normal, healthy amount of like doubt or questioning that comes in with anything that you've never done before and you're going to do for the first time. So, what do you think like the line is there? Because I imagine a lot of people have felt that way where they're like, it's not really imposter syndrome, but it's also like it sometimes is normal to like question things that you're gonna be doing.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like part of it, and even just like thinking of like the definition of it, I feel where the line is drawn, maybe, is like again, like what is the the level of effect it has on you of like you questioning how much you deserve this, right? Because yes, of course, like if someone asks me to be their maid of honor, or like you're saying, like if you were like you becoming the officiant, you will think that you absolutely can have that thought process of like, okay, but why me? But is that bleeding into okay, but like why, like okay, so now my my speech has to be the best thing they've ever heard because if it's not the best thing that they've ever heard, then I'm all of a sudden going to like they're going to realize that I'm a phony. Like sometimes it's like the you like your expectations to prove to people are so high that you feel like you have to hit this glass ceiling. And if you don't hit the ceiling, then people are going to know that you're a phony. So then it's not just imposter syndrome. You know I am an imposter. And if you find out I'm an imposter, what is that then going to say about me? Are you not gonna love me anymore? Are you then not going to be in my life anymore? But then you never feel like you ever hit the glass ceiling. So then you have to, so then it's like the anxiety then into all of that of like, am I actually accomplishing something that I want to accomplish? Am I actually good enough? And is what I'm going to put out there what it is that they're hoping for? Because if they ask me to be there efficient, that means they see me in a certain way and they see that I can accomplish things in a certain way. But if I don't put out in that way, then what does that mean about me?

SPEAKER_01

Did you have those thoughts?

SPEAKER_04

No. So then you don't feel like an imposter. Yay!

SPEAKER_03

I was like, oh, it's probably so annoying and unrelatable. But I'm like, no, I didn't.

SPEAKER_02

No, that's awesome because then you don't feel like an imposter. I, Max, I have to say, your core belief and your confidence in yourself that needs to be bottled and share it with the class, please, and thank you. Because it's phenomenal. That was like the other day when we were talking, and I was like, Do you hear that?

SPEAKER_03

There's so much thunder happening right now. I keep thinking, do you hear that? So I didn't hear anything that you just said.

SPEAKER_02

Do you hear that in the background?

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay, wonderful. There's a guy with a leaf blower literally on my deck. Hello. Do you want to come on the pod? Hey honey, come on in. I love me a landscaper. Um, so it was like the other day when we were talking, and you were and I was like, oh my god, like I always want somebody to like me. It's just like in my bones, like, love me, choose me, like pick me, and you're like, no, and I love it so much, and I've gotten a lot better. My people pleasing. See, again, therapists are human, but again, I can understand the imposter of a clinician of like, I want everyone to like me, and like sometimes I can be a people pleaser, but then I'm teaching people why it's like bit but heck, heck, buddy, you don't do it yourself. So clinicians could feel that way, or like, you know, am I an imposter? Like, are clients getting better? Do clients feel like I'm actually helping them? So I feel like I'm a good clinician, but does my output do my does the outcome of clients' lives prove that to be true? Could also be a thought process people have as a clinician.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, no, no, I appreciate that. All that is super, super helpful. I was just laughing at one point because I feel like like the more that I share, the more I'm like, how unrelatable am I? And Nick and I always talk about like when people are unrelatable, and I'm just like, man, maybe I'm the problem. I'm super unrelatable.

SPEAKER_02

No, you are you are the person who aspires to be. So that's not unrelatable. You're just a goddess.

SPEAKER_03

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

And I was saying 10 toes behind that. So if anyone ever tries to say anything other than me, I'll fight them. No one comes after my Maggie.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you. No, but thank you. That that's super helpful. The whole like the kind of like differentiation that you did. And it also reminded me so much of our perfectionism episode, because I remember asking you about that, where I had said something like, you know, hey, like I was a very high achieving person and like, you know, still am, and was a really high achieving student when I was a kid, but I didn't think that I was a perfectionist. And I remember we had this similar conversation, which is just like, well, how much was it affecting you, right? And how much is it interfering? And what are the thoughts like, and all of that? And like, I think that's also a good differentiation for people too, just to acknowledge that like there are like like typical healthy amounts of all of this that can come in, and it doesn't always have to swing to being a huge interference in your life or huge extreme. There is always a spectrum.

SPEAKER_02

100%. That's like when you think about the difference between being anxious and being nervous, right?

SPEAKER_03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Like, like that's such a smaller scale that I love to give people like comparison to because I feel like people know the difference between I'm feeling anxious and I'm feeling nervous. So it's like tangible, right? Like it's like, okay, like I've had this experience here. Feeling like an imposter and being shocked that someone is choosing you is very similar to that of anxiety versus nervous. Like, how much is it affecting your well-being? How many thoughts and you know, different things are going through your brain? Like, how is it impacting your life or is it not to like an nth degree? Totally. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03

So I feel like we can't have a conversation on this topic and not bring up social media.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, fair, fair,

Social Media Comparison And Curated Reality

SPEAKER_02

fair.

SPEAKER_03

Because I feel like that's such a huge comparative point. I know we've talked about that before, but I feel like especially the relationship between social media and imposter syndrome. So, how do you feel like social media has made imposter syndrome worse for people?

SPEAKER_02

I feel like it's made it worse because people are what's the wording I want to use? Like they they might feel like if this person is successful, what I'm doing isn't good enough because I'm not hitting the same level of engagement, of likes, of whatever as somebody else, right? So, like for us, for instance, if I'm posting a reel that I feel like I worked really hard on, if I posted something, which I feel like our reels are, I mean, if I do say so myself, I always like, oh, we post, but like, I don't know, maybe I have an inflated sense of self, you know, of us. But I feel like if I'm in comparing to the people that have been doing this for years, right? Like Liana, for instance. If I'm comparing myself to her, she has tens and of tens of thousands of followers, maybe even hundreds, I forget how many followers she has. But like, if I'm comparing myself to her, don't be Dululu, Jessica, take a sit, right? Like, I she's been doing this. She started out in 2023. I remember us interviewing her when she had just like a few thousand or like whatever, and she's built her stage, she's built her people, she put in the time and effort. Now, does that mean that we are not putting in the time and effort? No, but like a two-year difference is a big gap of the amount of time you're putting into something. And so, me saying, Well, I'm trying to achieve and I'm not experiencing, I could feel like an imposter and be like, okay, well, I'm not getting what she's getting. It's not that black and white. And so if people are saying too, that like, oh, I think of motherhood, uh, there are some moms that are putting stuff out on there that, like, you know, they feed their kids and it looks like they don't have the fear of choking, or they don't have the fear of, are you gonna have an allergic reaction? Where like I'm constantly having the fear that you are going to choke and die, and I'm gonna watch it happen right in front of my eyes. It's fine. Everything is fine. And you have to recognize that, like, it's not, you're not seeing the whole experience, right? Like, for instance, when we were doing that, take a picture every hour on the hour and see what your life is like. I'm showing a picture of me pumping. I'm half asleep, right? You might think that I'm bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, doing what I have to do, or like I had a picture of me going to Walgreens. The reason I went to Walgreens, not a great reason why I had to go to Walgreens, but I had to go to Walgreens, right? Or like me putting Christopher down for a nap, or like me on a Maggie. What did I have that day? You and I talked about this. I had a full-blown anxiety attack for four hours, and I had no idea because there were so many different I could cry thinking about it. Oh, that's how you know it really affected you. I almost started crying. Uh, Jessica, everything is fine. But like that day, I felt jittery, I felt nauseous, I felt I was sweaty, I was clammy, I was freezing, I didn't feel great that day, had no reason, I had no idea why until the next day. And every single one of the pictures we took, I had a smile on my face. I looked happy, gleeful. I was thumbs up, looking like a kid in the candy store. I felt like crap that day. And I remember talking to you about it then, and I remember calling you the next day and being like, Maggie, I have an I have an announcement. I was anxious all day yesterday, and that's what it was. Like, social media does not actually show you what people are experiencing. And I mean, I've thought about doing this, so like I'm not judging, but like then when you see videos of people crying, there's also this sense of like you had the thought in your mind to pull out your phone while you were hysterically crying and having a moment to yes, show vulnerability, but then like other people start to be like, Well, why are you doing that? Well, that's weird. Da-da-da-da-da. And like, so then when you're even thinking about it, am I an imposter for not showing that side of me? Or am I an imposter of being too open? That then it seems theatrical. So then people aren't recognizing what's real and what's not on either spectrum. Am I always too happy or am I attention-seeking, grabbing, and am I faking a cry because I'm recording myself while I'm crying? There's a lot.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, to all of that. And I think too, there's also an element of it, like we've been talking about so much, how imposter sentiment is related to people's jobs, where a lot of people make money off social media. A lot of people have that as part of their business or their entire business. Like I just saw something, there's a college, I forget what school it is, but like they have content creation as a major now in college. Like there's that many people that are making money off social media. Yeah, exactly. So it's also the same piece of like, there's going to be, you know, we know that like we can't compare to it, even though our brain tries to, but there's also this element of like people are trying to make money. And so, like, they're going to be, you know, curating their post, their feed, whatever it is, to this specific kind of goal of like this is their livelihood. And for a lot of people, social media is almost like a like a characterization of themselves, right? There's like a certain portrayal. So it's so important to challenge it and to like not, you know, not fall into that trap with it. And like we talked about when we had Kelsey on, right? It's like we know how easy it is to fall into that trap. Like we have all done it, but I feel like she especially, so if you haven't listened to that episode or need to refresh it, go check it out because I feel like we talk so much about like how to not fall into that trap with it.

SPEAKER_02

And it's hard, right? Like, do I watch travel bloggers or do I watch people that they're able to afford? But again, can they afford it? Did you go into debt? Right. There's so many questions you. Could ask of like, I'm watching people go to Italy. I'm watching people go to the Bahamas. I'm looking at all these people traveling while I'm in, I love my state, but like I'm stuck in New Jersey doing nothing of the nothing. You know what I'm saying? Like everybody has a different life experience. Everybody is willing to put effort or money or time or emotion or whatever have you in what they're willing to put it in. Right. Just like you might have a friend that you're like, hey, you want to go out tonight? No, I don't want to spend the money, da da da da. But then they go and spend it on like concert tickets. People are going to rationalize what it is they want to do with their lives. And we might not agree with it. We might not understand it. We might see it and go, huh? And we don't have to. And so if you're seeing that other people are experiencing or other people are posting or finding success or whatever it is, that does not mean you are an imposter. You just have different life experiences. And it's hard, right? Like I validate it is hard to see what other people are doing and accomplishing. And you know, it's not like it is. It's just hard to see it. And I get that. I do. I think I lost you. I can't tell. Hello. Hi.

SPEAKER_03

We're back, folks. We're back. We're back. I don't think that's ever happened in like all of our time recording.

SPEAKER_02

No, that's never happened while we've recorded before.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I feel like we have like two minutes left. And I don't know. We were so close. Oh my god. Yeah. Sorry about that. Crazy. I'll be honest. I don't know what the last thing you said was. Something though. We were talking about social media validating. It's hard.

SPEAKER_02

I can't remember if the last thing last thing I said was, you know, just feeling like a one on whichever side it is of like, am I doing too much or am I too little? Like what I could be seen as an imposter regardless. But oh, I think I was also saying how you know, I see bloggers or people will rationalize what it is that they want to do. I think that might have been it. People always rationalize what it is that they want to do. And we just, you know, it's just the acceptance of whatever it is. And you know, it's you're not, you don't have to extra overly that's not really English, but you don't have to be aggressive and proving to other people your capabilities. And I know that's hard, especially when for a lot of people, their narrative or what they feel like their worth is that's the word I'm looking for, that their worth is based in their productivity and what they can provide of others and like what it is that oh, excuse me, like just what they can accomplish. So I get how that can be hard if your worth is based in that, because then you can feel like an imposter and then it like spirals everything out of control. So I do get that.

SPEAKER_03

Totally. Yeah.

Takeaways And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_03

Well, this is this is super helpful. I'm so glad you came up with this topic because I feel like it's such a such a good one. We have never done an episode on it, which is kind of wild to think about, but it's such a good topic. I feel like so many people experience it, and also it relates so much to so many of the other things we've talked about, like perfectionism, for example. So it all ties together.

SPEAKER_01

It does. No, I was glad, you know, sometimes my brain can come up with things pretty fast. And this was a time that it did. It was a good one. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02

No, but I'm glad we did this topic too, because I think a lot of people feel it, even if they don't know that they're feeling it. I think it's experienced more than what we recognize. So I'm glad that we did it. Totally.

SPEAKER_03

All right, and thank you everybody for listening. If you have any questions or want to hear more on this topic, just let us know.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks, guys. We'll catch you on the next one. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Nourish and Empower Podcast.

SPEAKER_03

We hope this episode helped you redefine, reclaim, and restore what health means to you.

SPEAKER_02

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