Nourish & Empower
Have you ever felt like you could use a little extra support when working on your relationship with food and your body? Join Jessica, a Licensed Professional Counselor, and Maggie, a Registered Dietitian, along with special guests, as we chat about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, body image, and so much more. Together, we have over 15 years of experience working in eating disorders and mental health treatment. Let’s redefine, reclaim, & restore the true meaning of health on The Nourish & Empower Podcast.
Nourish & Empower
Reviewing the New Food Pyramid: Pros, Cons, and Our Take!
A new “pyramid” lands, the internet erupts, and we’re left asking the only question that matters: what should actually change on our plates? We take you past the viral graphic and into the real guidance, translating policy-speak into practical choices you can make this week. From protein hype to saturated fat limits, from kids and sugar to food access and cost, we connect the dots with clear, judgment-free advice.
We start by grounding the conversation in history—how the 1992 pyramid gave way to MyPyramid and then MyPlate—and why that plate was easy to teach across ages, cultures, and languages. Then we examine what’s new versus what’s noise. The saturated fat limit remains under 10%, yet the graphic leans harder into animal foods. We unpack how to reconcile those messages with smarter swaps: rotate seafood, choose lean cuts, mix in beans and lentils, use oils, and keep portions flexible. We also call out missing voices; it’s baffling that registered dietitians weren’t centered on the panel when they’re the ones who field public questions and rebuild trust.
Parents will find straight talk on kids and sugar. Strict rules can spark secrecy and binge-restrict patterns; a neutral, structured approach supports intuitive eating and calmer mealtimes. We touch on the much-cited JAMA study and why methods and dates matter before drawing sweeping conclusions. And because advice without access is a dead end, we focus on policy levers that make change real—SNAP and WIC improvements, culturally relevant options, and school meals that families can afford and kids will eat.
If you’ve felt whiplash from “eat more protein” while “watch saturated fat,” or wondered how the new USDA dietary guidelines fit your culture, budget, or health history, this conversation offers clarity you can use. Listen for practical takeaways, not perfection: adequate, consistent, and varied beats rigid rules every time. Enjoyed the show? Subscribe, share with a friend who’s confused by the new graphic, and leave a quick review to help others find us.
Show notes:
Trigger warning: this show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a Registered Dietitian, Licensed Mental Health Provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes. Listener discretion is advised.
Resource links:
ANAD: https://anad.org/
NEDA: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/
NAMI: https://nami.org/home
Action Alliance: https://theactionalliance.org/
NIH: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/
How to find a provider:
https://map.nationaleatingdisorders.org/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us
https://www.healthprofs.com/us/nutritionists-dietitians?tr=Hdr_Brand
Suicide & crisis awareness hotline: call 988 (available 24/7)
Eating Disorder hotline: call or text 800-931-2237 (Phone line is available Monday-Thursday 11 am-9 pm ET and Friday 11 am-5 pm ET; text line is available Monday-Thursday 3-6 pm ET and Friday 1-5 pm ET)
If you are experiencing a psychiatric or medical emergency, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
Join us as we redefine, reclaim, and restore the true meaning of health.
SPEAKER_02:Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture, and body image. This is Nourish and Empower. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health, specializing in eating disorder treatment. Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting.
SPEAKER_03:Visit www.hilltopbehavioralhealth.com because healing happens here. Hi everyone. Welcome to today's episode. We are going to be giving an overview of the USDA new food pyramid and the updated dietary guidelines. So trigger warning before we start today, we will be discussing specific nutrition recommendations, eating disorders, diet culture, and mental health. Listener discretion is advised. This show is not medical nutrition or mental health treatment, and it's not a replacement for meeting with a registered dietitian, licensed mental health provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider as well as crisis resources in the show notes. Additionally, the goal of today is to review the new dietary guidelines while also remaining impartial, as we would as professionals in this field. So even though this is a topic that does involve politics, today's episode is not about politics.
SPEAKER_02:Very excited and just want to emphasize this is not political. I also am not a political girly, so you couldn't even ask me politics because I would tell you a big old goose egg of what my knowledge is. But I am excited because I think this is a very important topic. And I think hot take there are some positives, there are some neutrals, and there are some questionable things, if that's the way to say it, right? And I and I want us to we just really wanted to highlight all of them because everything in life has good and has bad, right? And so we really just as neutral professionals wanted to highlight on all of the different things and really show our takeaways from it.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Yeah and I will say too, and maybe other people feel this way, but when the new guidelines dropped earlier last week, I, like many people, I'm sure, were like fully immersed in all of the information. And, you know, was any time that I had was watching videos and looking at information and everything. And now that a couple of days have passed, I actually yesterday went on our Instagram and I felt like it was still all about the dietary guidelines. And I was a little like, okay, I'm good. I feel like I have the information and I'm like ready, you know, for there to be other things to focus on in the nutrition field too. So, you know, we really wanted to get this episode to you all as quickly as we could, but also giving us time to really be well informed, you know, do our homework, which we we both did. And so that way we could give you this, you know, impartial objective review.
SPEAKER_01:I absolutely agree.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So I kind of wanted to start just giving a little history on the dietary guidelines because I don't know listeners kind of knowledge related to that. But the dietary guidelines are something that have been around for a long time. They originated in 1980, they're updated every five years. And most people are familiar with the graphic version, but for policymakers, for professionals in the field, there are written dietary guidelines. They're typically extensive, like 150 pages plus. Oh, wow. That are updated every five years. Yes. So I think most people are familiar with the graphic, as the public should be. Like that's really what the public is is meant to know. But I also wanted to just highlight that piece too about the written guidelines.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't even know that was a thing. And again, not that I'm going to know everything about anything dietary, right? Like that's not my field, that's not my scope. But I do find that so interesting that you guys, I mean, I'm glad you guys have that, right? Because I think it's important for you as providers to be able to have the in-depth knowledge and understanding as to why the dietary guidelines that you are following as a provider is the way that it is. So I love that you guys do it, but I never knew that was a thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. And even the graphics, right? Because I kind of wanted to go through the timeline of this because I think this is something that's caught a lot of attention online. So obviously, the new graphic, right, is supposed to graphically show more of a triangle like pyramid shape. It is flipped over from a food pyramid that most people have been accustomed to looking at. Although the food pyramid that has been referenced was from 1992 to 2005. And so it's a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02:Long time ago. And there's been things in between. So that's been like, and like my husband can attest to this. That was my biggest gripe out of everything, is that I felt like the way that people were communicating on the panel during the briefing, it was as if it went from that pyramid to this pyramid. And did we just forget about my plate? Like I'm confused.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. I mean, there's been a lot of kind of comparison of like the old food pyramid to this food pyramid. And I think for a lot of people, you know, I remember learning about the food pyramid in middle school. I think a lot of people, especially if we think of 1992 to 2005, learned about the food pyramid in middle school. So it does make sense too that there is kind of that natural thought that's going back to that. But not only was there my plate in between, but there was something called my pyramid in between two that had like a very brief little run for a few years. And then my plate came out in 2011. So that's you know what we've been using since. So the food pyramid that has been, you know, in comparison to again has been discontinued for 20 years, which is wild.
SPEAKER_02:In wild in the sense of like why that's then the comparison within the briefing that happened.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Unless they were just saying pyramid to pyramid, and because my plate isn't a pyramid, they couldn't compare the two. But that's but that was I'm very stuck on it, if you can't tell. Like I just didn't understand that at all.
SPEAKER_03:No, I agree. And and to my husband's been calling it the food funnel because he's like, it looks like a funnel, the shape of it, which I feel like you know, for comedic relief, we we need a little bit of that too. But he's like, it's not a pyramid, it's really more of a funnel. And also, did you see the South Park episode that has gotten popular about this? No, okay. So I don't watch South Park, but there's this clip. I don't know when it was from, obviously a couple years ago, but there was an episode in South Park where they were talking about the old food pyramid, and one of the characters in South Park like called somebody in the USDA and was like, the solution is to flip it, you know, to flip it over, like it's upside down, and that's what the clip is about. So it's just funny that that that's like gained popularity. And I was showing a friend that clip the other day, and we were just laughing about it of like the solution is to just flip it upside down.
SPEAKER_02:Honestly, if they flip this upside down because they got it from South Park, I'll take it. I love South Park, so I'll take it if that's where this is coming from.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, so I think too when we're thinking about the history of it, right? Really, my plate is what we've been using most recently. And I'd love to touch on my plate just a little bit because I think again, that's the graphic that most people can think of, right? So you picture kind of a typical dinner plate, and then it was like sectioned off for our main food groups. And so the things about my plate that I really liked and found really useful is that it's great for people visually because you could picture it when you're at somebody's house on a holiday or in a restaurant or whatever it is. It was also really easy to teach across like different ages because kids could visualize the plate and you could show them that graphic. It was easy to teach too with like cultural consideration because you know, people that you're working with could have said, you know, well, these are the foods culturally that I typically consume. And then together you could work with them of, hey, well, this is really kind of where that food would fall into, right? This food is primarily a carbohydrator, this food is primarily a protein. Yeah. It was also really easy to teach, even across different languages. So, you know, we're losing a lot of that like ease of understanding with my plate, which I think is you know relevant to point out. Um, and obviously there's a graphic component to all of this that people have seen. So would love to kind of look at that a little bit together too before we jump into like some of the the big information.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so when you first look at this, any anything that comes to mind first?
SPEAKER_02:It's a big turkey up there. That's what I see first. Let me tell you. But it also makes me, and again, I'm a carb girly, but it makes me sad that the carbs are at the bottom. But again, I don't know. Okay, you so many things. You asked the wrong girl the wrong question. So, what I find interesting is that carbs are at the bottom. What I also find interesting, and this probably is like not meaningful at all, but it's just what my brain saw. The ins everything is inside of the triangle, but the whole grains. Like, I don't know if that means anything or not, but I just find it interesting that like the line of demarcation, then it shows the proteins, healthy fats, fruits, and vegetables, and then all of them are in there, and then they close off the triangle, and then it's whole grains, and so I found that very interesting. I do like that there's like canned green beans and the canned tuna.
SPEAKER_01:What's that bowl next to the nuts? Is that like oatmeal? I think it's rice and beans. Oh, that okay, okay, okay, okay. I think isn't that a grain?
SPEAKER_03:So my understanding of probably where rice and beans is included in there. And so for people not looking at the graphic, right? Like the left hand side says protein, dairy, and healthy fats, the right hand side says fruits and vegetables, which are carbohydrates as well. Just want to clarify that. And then our whole grains at the bottom, also, you know, in our carbohydrates. The rice and beans, so rice and beans together would be like a complementary protein source, a complete protein source. So that's my thought of why it's above that line. Okay. You know, but I I think what's interesting with this graphic is there's a lot that's up to interpretation.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And that I think is something, you know, that one, you know, to speak on like a positive and a pro of that is that it can be individualized, which is great, which is what we really want to talk about. And I want to emphasize that point a lot about the importance of individualized nutrition and how individualized nutrition always trumps general nutrition advice. Correct. And we can definitely speak more to that because that to me is sort of my big takeaway from all of this. But I think too.
SPEAKER_00:I just love how your takeaway is something like a generalization, and mine's like so specific on what I'm seeing, on like what I'm seeing. It just shows the two different brains of how this is interpreted.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think too, then, you know, the the con of this is it is confusing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:The portion sizes I find confusing, and and you know, maybe they were not intending for people to take this graph so lit this graphic so literally, yeah, but it's like a very large steak, a very large chicken, turkey, whatever that is, a huge thing of broccoli. It's like larger than the turkey. And then, you know, as you kind of look down, it's like, you know, one almond by itself. So, you know, there's there's a lot of confusion, I think, that comes up here. Um, and a few other pieces with it too. The whole grains at the bottom. I I think the main piece of confusion I have with the whole grains, where they are, is that if you look at the food pyramid from the 90s to 2005, and it was right, it was flipped over. And the top of that food pyramid, what was in that category was supposed to be used sparingly. Like that was the word that this was to be used sparingly. The whole grains at the bottom, initially, my gut reaction with that was, oh my gosh, are they recommending that people use whole grains sparingly? And then as I was talking to a friend about it, she was like, if you click into, you know, and like actually look at the written guidelines, they're recommending two to four servings of whole grains a day. That is very different than the graphic representation we see. And I will So again, the confusion there.
SPEAKER_02:I agree. And sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. And the one thing I will say is that, and I can't find it on the website that I'm on, but I do appreciate how they have the explanations somewhere on the like Matt and I were going through it yesterday when I was watching the briefing for today, today's episode, and I remember him showing me like he was scrolling and he was like, Well, this is what it says for the proteins, dairies, and healthy fats, whole grains, fruits, and veggies. So it does give clarification as to what it is they are talking about. And so I do love that it's not just here's a picture and try and figure it out. I do appreciate that they gave the explanation on the side.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And I think there has to be a level of acknowledgement there that most people are not going to look further than the graphic. Most people may not know that there's an explanation. Again, what I wanted to point out like there are written dietary guidelines because I just don't think people, you know, know that there's gonna be that there is more information despite the graphic. Yes. So there's that piece of it too. Yeah, and just a couple other things here. The one thing I I want to point out because I always myth bust this with clients too. So there's a peanut on here, and it's kind of in the middle. It's much lower than a few of the other, I shouldn't say much lower, it is lower than a few of the other nuts. And I don't know if maybe that's more so related to some of the fats that nuts provide, but peanuts provide more protein per ounce than any other nut. And I think a lot of people don't realize that because of the boom of like almond butter and cashew butter and all of that. But to me, the peanut, if we're looking at, you know, and again, it's like protein, dairy, and fat are all included in together. So maybe this is more based on the fat, but I also think like that's misleading because I would interpret this as okay, then the peanut must have less protein than the walnut and the almonds that it's listed below, which isn't the case.
SPEAKER_02:Do peanuts have less fats than walnuts, cashews, and almonds, like or whatever the heck is those nuts are?
SPEAKER_01:I didn't even know those were nuts.
SPEAKER_03:But I would just say, in terms of the omega-3 fats, walnuts are a much better source than peanuts are. So perhaps that's why it is, you know, placed where it was placed on the graphic. But again, up to interpretation, yeah. Which, you know, is confusing and and misleading for the public.
SPEAKER_02:100%. That's something I would want to pick the brain of the panel is like, is there a reasoning and intention for the placement of everything on this graph? Or was it truly you were just identifying all the different things that fit in the category and you're like, okay, if we're just thinking of spatial awareness, we're gonna put the bigger ones at the top and the smaller ones at the bottom. Not because there's a hierarchy of these things, just because it, you know, like I would just like to know that. Because if there is a reasoning for why they place things the way that they did, why?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I agree with you exactly. And again, maybe we're looking into it too much, which I can also, you know, totally admit to the fact again that I've been very immersed in this. So I've spent a lot of time looking at this graphic and looking at all the information. So maybe it's not supposed to be that deep, but I just think, and you know, as my role as a dietitian, I find that there's a lot of misinformation out there about nutrition. Of course, there's a lot of public distrust when it comes to nutrition. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting to me that dietitians were not included in on this panel. There was not a single dietitian included. Yet to me, dietitians are the ones that are going to have to, you know, be there working with the public, answering questions, explaining all of this, and the lack of trust that that this can create for the public. I mean, dietitians are the ones that are dealing with that distrust and that confusion. I'm just disappointed that a dietitian wasn't included on because I mean, we have some incredible research dietitians in the field. Yeah. So that was just another piece of it too.
SPEAKER_02:I remember Matt and I talking about this yesterday, but I think there are some nutritionists or nutrition scientists that were a part of. So I guess my question for you, what's the difference between a dietitian being on the panel and like a nutrition scientist? Because I can imagine some people are going to be like, well, there was a nutritionist of some kind. So, like, what would the what is the difference and why is it important to note that a dietitian wasn't on the panel?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, and and totally fair, right? That there are, you know, I mean, experts in the nutrition field who are not dietitians and who are nutrition scientists and researchers. To me, where the difference lies is that as a dietitian, we have not just a scientific and a research base, but we also through our internship, because we have to do an extensive internship in order to meet the RD credential before you pass the RD exam, is that we also have to do extensive work in food service and in community nutrition as well as clinical nutrition. So to me, it's a very well-versed degree where, and that, you know, can bring up another piece of all of this too, which is like there's a community nutrition component here. There's a public health component here. And so, as dietitians, we have, you know, expertise in all of these different areas, not to say that nutrition scientists, you know, individually may, you know, may or may not have experience in those areas, but you know, nutrition scientists are going to be more so the ones doing the research, less associated with the public. And that I think is the difference.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that's a huge difference, right? Because I think it obviously you don't understand things. And you don't know cause and effect unless you do the research. Like research is important for a reason. And it's also important to understand the ruling out process or the implementation process and what's going to work and what doesn't. And so I like the way that you just described that and explained it because I think it is a very distinctive and important distinction between why both of them are equally as important for different reasons, right? So it's great that they had nutrition scientists on the panel or, you know, looking through the research and being able to help create this. And I I agree with you. Like even as someone who's in the field, but like I'm like a cousin three times removed of a dietitian, like I just feel like there was so much more missing because there wasn't a dietitian on the panel trying to create this. And I was upset about it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, no, I I totally agree. And I think too, so okay, now that we've looked at the graphic, I think let's go into maybe more so about like the the general themes of the recommendations. And again, like I said earlier, dietary guidelines are posted every five years. And so, you know, the dietary guidelines that were previously posted, there are a lot of similarities with these guidelines and the guidelines that we had been using prior to this. And so a lot of similarities on like the emphasis on, you know, including in nutrient-dense whole foods. That's consistently been there. There's a couple of nutrients of concern that were identified in the the previous dietary guidelines, the 2020 guidelines. So, you know, that we have seen lower rates of calcium intake, potassium, vitamin D, things like that. A lot of those things, again, are emphasized in these guidelines as well. So there are a lot of similarities. Yes. And then, of course, there's been, you know, a couple of kind of larger changes that have come in, specifically when it comes to proteins and fats. And so I think it's important that we review some of those changes as well. I agree.
SPEAKER_02:One of the things that I remember hearing too about the proteins and fats is I'm, and I know this is also like a like this statement was like a big thing for like everybody on social media too, is like the war on proteins and like this whole thing on like saturated fats, right? And I feel like again, from my education through you and all of my wonderful, beautiful, amazingly intelligent colleagues who are dietitians, fats are so important, especially for the female reproductive system. Holla. So just throwing that out there. On top of, I feel like the recommendation for that like 10% of saturated fats of your daily intake has been the recommendation for a while. So I feel like again, there isn't any change there. But the way that I heard, interpreted, and comprehended the briefing was as though that this was brand new. And so I'm curious, like, I don't know if anybody can answer that, but I just found that very curious. And then I also would love to understand where this war on proteins is, because especially if you're on social media or even just watching TV, they have protein and coffee. Cottage cheese made a huge comeback because everyone was hooked on proteins. So I feel like when I hear the statement of war on proteins, to me, that's negative. Like proteins were weren't highlighted or desired, and there people are trying to say, no, don't do it. And now we're like, yeah, go. But I feel like everyone's been very hyper-fixated on protein. So I was really confused by that statement as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I agree. And I've spent a lot of time the past couple of days thinking about what that could mean. Yeah. And so, because I think my initial gut reaction was similar to yours, of like, we have the diet culture trend for a very long time, you know, as long as I feel like I can remember it, has been this high protein, low carb trend. Right. And so I think, you know, my initial gut reaction to like the quote unquote worn protein was I don't understand, you know, this number one, I don't understand the language still, but I don't understand where this is coming from because you know, Americans do not have an issue meeting protein needs, right? And we already, you know, have a much more of a protein focus than than other cultures do. As I was thinking about it more, and especially looking back at my notes, like what my students and I have reviewed when we were looking at the dietary guidelines previously. So the previous dietary guidelines more so emphasize plant-based protein sources and you know, ways to include in more variety when it comes to protein sources. And not that these guidelines don't emphasize variety with protein sources, because again, if we're looking at the graphic, there is, you know, obviously there's meat, there's dairy, we do see nuts there, we see beans there, you know, we see cantuna, we see salmon, shrimp, things like that. Yes. But I think where the shift maybe is coming in is that these guidelines definitely are emphasizing animal-based protein much more than we've had an emphasis on recently. Yes. And that perhaps to me is the change. Additionally, I think when we're thinking about even the protein examples that you listed, or at least one of them you listed, like there's protein and coffee. Yes. Right. I think also too, you know, our society over the past few years has really gravitated more so to powder-based forms of protein, right? Protein powders, you know, being added into so many products.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And to me, again, with the like focus with these guidelines on like the the quote unquote like eat real foods, I think the maybe the war on protein, my interpretation of it is the push for more animal protein and the push for, you know, more proteins to be coming from those like quote unquote whole animal-based foods. I don't know if that's it, but that's at least as I've been trying to, you know, sort of figure some of this out. That's what's come to mind for me.
SPEAKER_02:And listen, and if that's the case, obviously when we're talking whole foods, right? When we're talking about when we're talking about nutrition and balance, right? And all on all foods fit, yes, we want sources from animal proteins, right? And things like that. I think it's I think it is just hard when they make it sound. Again, that might not be their intention, and I'm all about intention, right? They make it sound as though it's hard and fast, and I just don't know if that's realistic. And right, and and do I understand too that like the food pyramid or my plate or dietary, any form of a dietary, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, any form of dietary guideline cannot fit everybody's dietary needs in its graphic, right? Like I'm I understand that it needs to be a generalization because everybody does have different needs, or you know, whether it's an allergy, chronic illness, or if they're the same thing. I have no idea. But like, you know, I think it is hard to make something so specific. So I'm also very understanding that, you know, you and I or like other providers might be looking at this and being like, well, that's not fair to this population or people that deal with this. And I understand, like, devil's advocate, you can't be so specific for everybody.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, absolutely. 100% agree. And I also just want to say, too, this isn't to say my plate was perfect. You know, it wasn't. It it had its pros and cons, just as honestly, any dietary guidelines are going to have. There are always going to be pros and cons with it.
SPEAKER_01:100%.
SPEAKER_03:And so I think that's a, you know, an important piece with it. And you're 100% right. You know, any general nutrition advice is always going to have caveats for different populations of people. Like you said, people with allergies, you know, people who are vegetarian, people who are vegan, they're looking at this graphic, they're probably not seeing, you know, some of the things that that they maybe would hope to have seen. Yeah. So there's definitely the caveats for different populations and not just what an individual's medical status is currently looking like, because that's obviously an important piece of this. Like you said, if there's an acute disease, a chronic disease, an allergy, things like that going on. We also have to consider family history. Because if I can, you know, personally share, right? One of the things when I really looked at all of this information coming out, one of the initial thoughts that came into my mind is I'm not going to be changing the way that I fuel and nourish my body based off of this graphic and these guidelines. Because I have a family history of high cholesterol, stroke, heart attack, cardiac disease. And I, you know, for myself and my individual nutrition, I cannot be significantly increasing my, you know, animal-based protein foods, right? And so I also think for people too, it's important that we're looking at this information, we're analyzing this information, and that nutrition is personal. We need to consider family history, our health status, our access, our culture, our preferences. There's so many individual aspects to it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And that like population level tools, right? I don't know the population of the US, but like, you know, millions and millions of people, right? This population level tool does not mean that this is a personal nutrition prescription for you. If you are looking for personal nutrition prescriptions and advice, please go see a registered dietitian and they would be happy to help you.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that's also like for me, it's also like a huge educational piece here. Like I feel like if there is somehow where in schools or even through the insurance companies or through something that where the education of personal nutritional needs or like how to, like you, Maggie, for instance, with our clients, you literally make a grocery shopping like plan, or like I know in the past, you've literally spoken to a client on the phone while they're in the grocery store and have helped them figure out what to do in the grocery store. If we provided that service to people to say, hey, you have difficulty, you, or if you're in a lower socioeconomic status and you're looking for a way to be able to, you know, make a bang with your buck, is that the saying? Where you're trying to, you know, make sure you're having all these whole foods. Let's do that. Like, how do we get the education in there to be able to teach everybody, right? And I remember the woman on the panel, she was saying, like, it is an access problem. And I was like, thank you very much for saying that, right? Because there is that problem. And so hopefully, with what she said in regards to like having done like the Snap benefit retailers of having double the amount of inventory for the individuals that are on Snap so they can have more access to these whole foods. I hope that happens, right? Because then they have the opportunity. Because if they don't have it, then they're going to be getting those ultra-processed foods, which are fine. And they're going to be, you know, having not as balanced in nourishment of meals because there is an access problem. So I just hope that they put their money where their mouth is and those things actually come to fruition because that also would help a whole lot.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, absolutely. An access problem and an affordability problem. Yes. You know, and again, this is where, you know, when we were talking about registered dietitians earlier, like this community nutrition, this public health component that comes in of like, you know, again, people are maybe looking at this graphic, like, wow, this would be great, but I can't afford to buy these foods. And so I also think that's a huge piece with it, too, that the cost of obviously the cost of living is really high. The cost of food is really high. And so I think that's such an important piece with all of this too. And like you said, right, you know, this is sort of the the kind of like our first introduction to these new guidelines, right? They just came out a couple of days ago. But, you know, really what we're going to be looking for now is like, how does this lead to action, right? How does this impact Snap and WIC and access and affordability and the National School Lunch Program and all of these things? Because, you know, it's one thing to show the general public, you know, this graphic with food, or even as dietitians, you know, I've I've seen this happen in the past where dietitians are making recommendations to people that people can't afford. And so, you know, then okay, you're making a recommendation, but if somebody can't afford that, they're not actually then going to be able to implement, you know, any of the change. And we have to be, you know, well informed when it comes to what is access like, what is affordability like. So that way, you know, we're being sensitive to all of those pieces as well in considering, you know, nutrition recommendations.
SPEAKER_02:I agree a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I want to jump back to fats because we brought up proteins and fats initially, and we knew going into this episode, right, that we have both, again, done a ton of research the past few days. So we know we're we're jumping all over the place, but you know, we wanted to get as much information packed as we could. So you brought up the fats earlier, and and I just want to spend a little bit more time there and also, you know, bring up that like there is conflicting guidance on saturated fat when we're reviewing these guidelines, because you know, the initial recommendation, which is from the past dietary guidelines, is that you know, less than 10% of total calories should come from saturated fats per day. That is not new information that's been the recommendation and in the past guidelines. Yet this graphic and these recommendations are increasing saturated fat sources in yet we are also seeing an increase in saturated fat sources via a lot of these, you know, animal-based foods that are being recommended.
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna ask, can you identify from this? Because obviously, right, if someone's looking at this and they're hearing we want to decrease in saturated fats to stay in that 10% and not exceeding it, right? And you're stating that if you look at this, that's actually contradicting that statement. So can you identify for our listeners what is the contradiction? Like what are the foods on the graph that actually would be higher in saturated fats if they were just to look at this point blank without any education?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. So saturated, we have a couple different types of fats. So we'll we'll do a little nutrition education here, but we'll keep it keep it brief. So saturated fats are fats that are usually solid at room temperature, which is kind of how when I'm teaching this to my students, I help them remember, right? S for saturated, s for solid. So if you think about a stick of butter, right? If you put a stick of butter out on your counter, it's not going to instantly melt, right? It's not liquid at room temperature. Versus oils, some of our oils, for example, right, are liquid at room temperature. And so when we're looking at the graphic, saturated fat sources are found in our animal-based foods. So if we're looking at that steak there, you can even see the marbling on the steak in the graphic, right? That's the fat right there. And what happens when you cook the steak? When we cook those saturated fats, they melt. So that's where we see some of that fat melts off. But it's why when you look at a steak that you're buying in the grocery store before it's cooked, and you're looking at a steak after, you don't see that same marbling happen. Also, you know, our dairy products are sources of saturated fat as well. So we're seeing some of that there. We have the stick of butter there. So just to give a few examples of what that's looking like. So this is one of those pieces where there's mixed messaging that's happening. And any kind of miss messaging fuels public distrust. Right. So that I think is such a big piece here, where we're still having the 10%, you know, saturated fat guideline that has been there, right? Not new information. But with emphasizing more animal-based foods, we are automatically then seeing an increase in saturated fat intake for people. So, how are people supposed to eat more animal-based foods and still maintain the saturated fat guidelines? It's it's one of those things where it's missed and it's going to be something that I think is going to cause a lot of confusion. I also always love to talk about this too. Like, nutrition is definitely a growing science, right? Whenever we have information about nutrition coming out, it's because there's you know consistently updated research, things like that happening. Um, but nutrition is still a science, and we want to make sure that we're utilizing the facts here because again, the facts are what you know we can base this off of and be able to help, you know, challenge any of the mis messaging, misinformation, and really help the public, you know, better understand this information here too. There's a couple, you know, inaccuracies that were pointed out when it comes to fats in the guidelines. And so I also think that that's an important piece with it too. And again, something for nutrition professionals, you know, to be looking at. And, you know, as we're evaluating research, should we just be making sure that we are when we're communicating with our clients and our patients that we're giving that evidence-based information?
SPEAKER_02:I think too, and I just had this thought, and I hope the the way that my brain is thinking, this comes out coherently. And again, I think I'm also thinking about this in the sense of like our population and our clients. And again, just like my statement before, that it's very niche, right? And it's not, you can't tailor something that is for the general public with all the specifiers within it, right? I think I always just get a little like when you give percentages and numbers, right? Because then people can get very fixated on it. People can then all of a sudden get very, I have to keep things to a certain number, or I'm going to be unhealthy, or some, or I'm going to get heart disease, I'm going to have, you know, a cardiovascular issue or diabetes. And that's already baseline very difficult for people to hear that and be like, oh, saturated fats are bad. But it's like they're not bad for you because if we're being told that animal-based proteins are good and those are high in saturated fats, like, yes, two things can live in the same space, but then we also have to understand that like there's ways to balance that. So you're eating the proteins, you're eating the saturated fats, and you're eating other things to gain other nutrients to help like also balance and counteract how much of what your body is digesting, right? If any of that made sense. I don't know if that did. But you know, and I think it's it's just it makes me a little uneasy because uh if then we're saying that there's false information in the dietary guidelines and people are taking this based on like what they're hearing, just makes me nervous for the people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I I think everything you said is, you know, is Really helpful to point out too that you know, we know the more specifics that get brought up with nutrition information, the more that that can fuel disordered eating. And that's obviously something we need to be super, super mindful of here. Because again, you know, we want to make sure. And I should say we, I should say I. I want to make sure that people are eating adequately, people are eating consistently, people are eating a variety. Those are the same three words that I always use, I always have, I always will. And, you know, again, for people who are listening to this who, you know, don't work with a registered dietitian or, you know, are concerned that wow, I'm I'm really immersed in all this information. And, you know, I'm having some of these disordered eating thoughts. Like there's registered dietitians out there, there's licensed therapists out there, there's people that can, you know, help and talk through this. And again, that we want individual nutrition recommendations, not just something that's overarching and general.
SPEAKER_02:100%. I agree with that. Yeah. I think too, I think we're so, and I love it, we're so fixated on ensuring kids are healthy, right? And I think health in general is very important. And as a therapist, discontinuing genuine gener hello, discontinuing generational trauma is super important. So discontinuing any malnourishment, disordered eating relationships with food, any food access, right? Like I'm going to just categorize the world's relationship with food as generational trauma just for the sake of what I'm saying. Trying to discontinue that and provide our kids and provide our world, but with our children with a difference of a relationship with food and a difference understanding and access to food, I'm all here for it, right? Like I think it is very important if we're trying to instill change so generations to come are better off. Obviously, we want to pay attention to our children, right? I think a huge piece that we're missing is that telling people no sugar, telling people that we need to just be hard and fast about certain things, and not emphasizing that all foods fit, which is like another thing I wish was on the panel. I wish there was somebody, even if it was a nutrition scientist, even if it was a therapist, or if it was just like a doctor, like an MD that was on the panel that had the intuitive eating mindset, I wish someone was on the panel with that. Because I think that's a huge missing piece, also. Because telling people to not have sugar under the age of 10, not what? What childhood are you gonna have? And I'm not saying sugar is based on like happiness, right? But like identifying that that's bad, or even saying that like kids are addicted to food. That gives me the ick. The ick. We are not addicted to food. I repeat, we are not addicted to food. We might get used to certain foods, so are we going to crave what is typically in our repertoire? Yeah, right? But does that mean that we are addicted? No, I am a fry a holic, okay? And I will gladly say it. But am I addicted to it? No. I can go I can go however long without French fries. I just don't appreciate how they're trying to once again weaponize and moralize food because I think with all of their good that they're trying to do, that's still a huge piece that's negative. And that's also one of the pieces we should be focusing on changing is that there is a moral and a good or a bad.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I think, you know, there's there's certain elements of this that are new, and there's certain elements of it that aren't, right? So the specific guideline on added sugar for children under a certain age is new, but the recommendations to modify children's intakes are not new, right? This is something that, you know, we have seen in nutrition guidelines in the past. And what we've also seen as a side effect of that is an increase in secretive eating, an increase in binge eating behaviors. And so, you know, again, as providers in the eating disorder world, I can't even say how many times I have had an adult client come and as we're, you know, working on their relationship with food, we see some of these same themes and elements come up of I was restricted as a kid when it came to sugar, or I was not allowed to eat dessert until I completed my plate, or you know, whatever kind of those same themes are. We have seen that before, and we have seen the secret of eating, the binge eating behaviors. And so, you know, I think this again, this the specifics of this guideline is new, but the overall theme of it is not. And so the other piece of all of this, too, is that, you know, really when we're thinking about kids and their relationships with food, and you brought up intuitive eating, right? That, you know, we want to foster intuitive eating in children. We want children to be able to listen to their hunger and fullness cues and and age appropriately, right? Like there is parental, you know, inclusion in a child's relationship with food, just as there's parental inclusion in a child, you know, in so many other ways, right? Because, you know, they're they're making different choices. Like I had a client years ago say, like, right, I wouldn't let my you know, two-year-old choose her outfit every day because, you know, there's just some help with those choices that she needs, just as I'm not going to let her like totally choose her food every day. She's two, you know. So I think there's a piece of that too. But really, I think when it comes to kids, like we want to have that neutral food language, like you said. You know, we want them to see that, you know, food can be included and we want that variety, they're growing. Um, and that's such an important piece nutritionally. Okay. And you, you know, before we started recording, you mentioned a study. And I would love if you could explain that a little bit and we could talk about some of those elements because I think that's relevant.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So, and I will say too, you know, and anybody can judge me, it's fine. I the one of the panelists brought up the JAMA study that was about kids and the percentage of their calories being consumed by ultra-processed foods, right? And I didn't know what JAMA stood for. I didn't know where to find said Jamma. And, you know, thankfully, this is why we have friends and provider friends because Maggie led the way. But, you know, the thing that I have like the biggest question on when it comes to this study are well, actually, two things. One, that study was from 1999 to 2018. So is it to a sense outdated? Yeah. And, you know, that was that was like number one, right? So it doesn't include current times when it and it could have changed, right? Just like for medication purposes, we're not gonna take a study from you know almost 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and be like, that's still gonna stand today. No, we're going to continue to do research to ensure that we have the most up-to-date knowledge and understanding as to how things are affecting people, right? So that was my number one thing. My second thing is the number 70%. What is this 70%? Because the statement that was made during the briefing by the gentleman, and again, don't know names, but I believe he was wearing a blue tie, and he was saying how 70% of kids are getting their the majority of their intake through ultra-processed foods. Now, is that just 70% of the population? Or is that saying that out of a hundred kids, like a hundred kids are getting 70% of their calories through that? Right? Like to me, I feel like they're very different identifications of how ultra-processed foods are being consumed, in the sense of it's either 70% of what they're eating is ultra-processed, or it's just 70% of the population in the study, which to me are very different. Now, granted, I'm not a research girly, so I could be interpreting this wrong, but those are the things that stood out to me that then made me question what we are talking about with these statistics.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, absolutely. And and to be transparent too, right? When Jess brought the study up to me, it's not a study that I've seen before from the Journal of the American Medical Association. So, like a very brief review of it, and I would need to look at it further to really understand that 70%. But like you already pointed out, I mean, the years of the study from 1999 to 2018. So that's a relevant piece when we're looking at research. The other thing that I always look at when it comes to nutrition research is the method used to obtain the information. So this information was obtained via 24-hour dietary recall. And a 24-hour diet recall is a very common way to obtain nutrition information. It's something I utilize. And with that, we always have to understand the potential limitations of a study that can exist. And so a 24-hour dietary recall is when somebody is thinking back on the past 24 hours and giving you nutrition information. Now, some of the limitations that can exist there is sometimes people just can't really remember all the specifics of what they had. There's naturally going to be differences in like portion sizes that are estimated that are being provided, right? Amounts are going to be more estimation based. There's also when it comes to nutrition information, there's an unfortunate piece here, but it is something we have to acknowledge that people do not always feel safe or comfortable sharing what they have eaten. And so we do see when we're obtaining 24-hour recalls or food recalls from people that they may not provide 100% accurate information because, you know, for a variety of those factors. The other thing is the sample that was studied here was US youths age two to 19 years. And so I have to imagine, I don't know again, the specifics of like what age and below that this was happening for, but I imagine some kind of proxy, a parent guardian, was used for some of our younger kiddos here, like ages two, three, four, in providing that 24-hour food recall. So just like the game of telephone, right? That if you've ever played that game as a kid where you know the starting word and the ending word or phrase are very different from each other, that naturally can happen when it comes to self-reported information or information reported on behalf of somebody else. So I'd have to look into it further, but just on like a quick review of this study, as I pulled it up, those are the few kind of first pieces that come to mind for me. I don't want to get into ultra-processed foods too much. We can do another episode on that. I think that would actually be really great to do just for time's sake and kind of explaining what that is. But I think you're right that there's, you know, there's a lot of pieces here that are affecting kids. And I mean, thus going to be affecting people who take care of kids, right? Like parents and guardians are going to be having questions about this. What does this mean? What do I give my kids? What do I not give my kids? As of course they naturally would.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So again, that's where, you know, some of the guidance that professionals can give individually for your specific family unit can be so helpful.
SPEAKER_02:And that's where I think education comes into all of this, right? And that's where access comes into all of this. And so if we are really looking for change, which again it's part of my job, is having people accept change and growth and trying to find where we can do better, be better, and just, you know, feel better. And so the dietary guidelines that are coming out aren't innately bad, right? Just like you're saying, a lot of what they are coming out with has already been in practice for at least the past five years, right? So it's not to say that this is all terrible. And if we're not providing education and access and understanding and support, can be a moot point. Like, great, make all the graphics you want, right? Like whatever, but we also need to ensure that the people that we're trying to rule this out and implement this to also have the availability to like do something with it.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Nutrition can't stand alone. Totally agree with that. We need, you know, we need these right other pillars of support, you know, around it. And yeah, I totally agree with you. I think that's such an important piece of okay, you know, yes, this is the, you know, the the food and the nutrition related piece. But again, that also brings in the medical piece, public health, mental health, you know, affordability, there's access. There's so many other components that go along with this.
SPEAKER_02:Correct. Especially because, you know, two things that just came to my mind. You know, one of them is great, I forgot one of them. So that's really good. But one of them definitely is like the alcohol piece that's here, right? Like, I think, oh, this was it, the mental health piece and the alcohol piece. And I think one of the things that they identified was that food is a big proponent to like what can help with mental health. And in a few ways, I agree, right? Like, is there science to prove that nourishment helps the brain? Yeah. So is there science to prove that like balanced nutrition is going to help you be able to function optimally? 100%, not discounting that. And just like we were talking about alcohol, which was I thought was a very interesting take on this food brings people together. Food brings happiness. If we are identifying in one breath that food is something that can change mental health and cause a decrease in depression and cause you to feel a little bit more lively, then let's stop placing morals on food, right? Let's stop placing that there's good and bad, or that you should eat this or you shouldn't eat that, or it should be this equation that you're constantly thinking about because that's what makes people so stressed out. And stress to all the doctors out there is going to hurt you more than eating a cupcake. Okay. Let's just call it spade a spade. And so that was something that I was like, okay, well, if we're understanding this, then let's reverse it. And I also thought it was interesting that alcohol, which is a carcinogen, and alcohol that inebriates you and causes you to completely change who you are, and also has so many and has sugar in it and has all of these different components that we're actually identifying as bad in my air quotes. We're now saying it's social. Go at it, have fun, be connected to your peers. Why are why are we contradicting ourselves? Or like if we can give alcohol our saving grace, why can't we do that with food? Help.
SPEAKER_03:Help, help. Yeah, yep, yeah. No, you're everything, everything you said spot on. And and not that this this is a generalization for sure, but I just want to point out the possible generalization here because you know, many people may have even seen this for themselves, but you know, when we see alcohol introduced into somebody's, you know, overall nutrition, we also do oftentimes see a change in eating patterns and snacking related to alcohol as well. So, again, a generalization, not that everybody experiences that, but we do often see that as well. That, you know, when alcohol is included in, okay, you know, now there is, you know, snacking happening or different foods happening. And so I just wanted to point that out too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Cause again, not saying don't have a drink, right? I am I am not a do-and-don't. I am not when it comes to food. And, you know, I will include alcohol in like the beverage food piece of everything. I just find it very entertaining, to be quite honest with you, that we're not demonizing alcohol, which actually is addictive. Okay. That we're not demonizing alcohol, which can actually create so many social, mental, health, like so medical, emotional, physical complications to people. And like, yes, and I will say, right, because we are, we are, I know I'm not sounding very neutral, and I very much understand that. And, you know, to make this neutral, they did say this is not to have daily. This is not to have in an overconsumption. Like they did specify that. So I will give them that, right? This they weren't saying drink all the time. No. I just wish that they would give nutrients, whether ultra-processed, out of the ground, in a microwave, on the stove, whichever way you want to put it in your air fryer, whatever it is, why can't we see them both the same? Because alcohol is going to cause so much more problems than ultra-processed foods.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, I'm I think it's it's great that you emphasized, you know, some of those pieces as well. And I think just to overall kind of summarize, so these guidelines came out about three days ago. So what we currently know and what we may know in the next couple weeks, months, years is obviously going to change and you know be different. But overall, kind of our final takeaways are, you know, again, that a lot of the information in these guidelines are very similar to nutrition recommendations that we've seen previously, right? This emphasis on like colorful, nutrient-dense foods, you know, kind of overall balance when it comes to nutrition. And remembering that dietary guidelines are a general population level tool. This is not a personal prescription written just for each individual. So when you're, you know, taking this information in, we need to consider family history, health status, access, culture, preferences, right? Nutrition is individual. It is personal. And if you're feeling overwhelmed or unsure what to do with this information, there are resources out there. There are registered dietitians, there are licensed mental health providers, and we just want to make sure that you know we understand all of those pieces that play into nutrition because nutrition is just one aspect when it comes to our overall health status.
SPEAKER_02:Correct. And if you guys have questions, you know, do your own research, ask, don't be afraid to ask the questions. Even even if it's, you know, just writing to Maggie and I in our DMs or to another dietitian you see, is that you speaking and gaining professional help? No. But is that you at least gaining clarity from a professional? Yes. So don't hesitate to reach out to, you know, people and to really try and gain more information for yourselves, you know, and keep doing what is best for you, just like Maggie said. But we thank you so much for listening today. It is this very hot topic. So we were very excited to jump on the mics and to talk to you guys. And we will definitely catch you on the next one. Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Nourish and Empower Podcast.
SPEAKER_03:We hope this episode helped you redefine, reclaim, and restore what health means to you.
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