Nourish & Empower

EMDR Demystified: From Stigma To Skillful Healing

• Jessica Coviello & Maggie Lefavor • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Show notes:

Trigger warning: this show is not medical, nutrition, or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with a Registered Dietitian, Licensed Mental Health Provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider, as well as crisis resources, in the show notes. Listener discretion is advised.


Resource links:

ANAD: https://anad.org/

NEDA: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

NAMI: https://nami.org/home

Action Alliance: https://theactionalliance.org/

NIH: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/


How to find a provider: 

https://map.nationaleatingdisorders.org/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

https://www.healthprofs.com/us/nutritionists-dietitians?tr=Hdr_Brand


Suicide & crisis awareness hotline: call 988 (available 24/7)


Eating Disorder hotline: call or text 800-931-2237 (Phone line is available Monday-Thursday 11 am-9 pm ET and Friday 11 am-5 pm ET; text line is available Monday-Thursday 3-6 pm ET and Friday 1-5 pm ET)


If you are experiencing a psychiatric or medical emergency, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.



What if the memories that weigh you down could lose their grip without retelling every detail? We sit with licensed therapist and EMDR specialist Ashley Gambino to unpack how EMDR transforms stuck stress into steadier days—whether you’re navigating “big T” trauma or the everyday triggers that drain your energy at work and home.

Ashley starts by busting the myth that EMDR is only for extreme trauma. She explains how the method targets negative beliefs—like “I’m not enough” or “I’m not safe”—and traces them back to earlier moments your body remembers even when your mind doesn’t. We walk through readiness and safety, including when EMDR should wait for sobriety or stabilization, and how resourcing with a “safe calm place” and regulation skills builds a reliable foundation. From there, Ashley demystifies the flow of a session: identifying a present trigger, mapping body-based memories, and using bilateral stimulation so the brain can naturally reduce distress.

Curious about EMDR intensives? Ashley outlines how multi-hour blocks can compress months of progress into days, with structured breaks, clear expectations, and honest aftercare. You’ll hear how memories often fade in intensity and color, how positive beliefs are installed, and why the real proof shows up in daily life—like speaking to a difficult boss with calm confidence or setting a boundary without the familiar panic. We also touch on integrating EMDR with IFS, acute protocols for recent events, and why ongoing training matters for ethical, effective care.

If you’ve wondered whether EMDR could help you feel lighter, more present, and more in control, this conversation offers a grounded, compassionate roadmap. Listen, share with a friend who’s curious about trauma therapy, and then tell us: what belief would you most want to change? Subscribe, leave a review, and help more listeners find thoughtful mental health conversations.

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SPEAKER_00:

Join us as we redefine, reclaim, and restore the true meaning of health. Let's dive into the tough conversations about mental health, nutrition, eating disorders, diet culture embodiment. This is Nurit and Empower. This episode is brought to you by Hilltop Behavioral Health, specializing in eating disorder treatment. Hilltop offers integrated therapy and nutrition care in one compassionate setting.

SPEAKER_01:

Visit www.hilltopbehavioralhealth.com because healing happens here. Hi everybody, welcome to this week's episode. We have a special guest with us. Ashley Gambino is the owner and founder of private practice you deserve therapy. She offers individual, couples, and family therapy available both in person and virtually to meet clients wherever they are on their journey. She wants to change the narrative from you need therapy to viewing therapy as a gift that we all deserve. Ashley is a licensed mental health and substance abuse therapist with specialized training and certification in eye movement, desensitation and reprocessing, also known as EMDR. Her professional background includes extensive experience in inpatient hospitals, PhPs, and IOPs, giving her a well-rounded understanding of mental health care across different levels of support. Trigger warning for today: we will be discussing eating disorders, trauma, and mental health. Listener discretion is advised. This show is not medical nutrition or mental health treatment and is not a replacement for meeting with the registered dietitian, licensed mental health provider, or any other medical provider. You can find resources for how to find a provider as well as crisis resources in the show notes. Ashley, thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for having me. Welcome, welcome. I always say this with all of our episodes when I feel like I'm so, you know, effing redundant. But thank you for being here, and we're so excited. You are our second EMDR specialist to be on the show, and our first one was years ago. So I'm so excited to have someone back on because a lot of my clients recently have been talking about EMDR, and a lot of the a lot of questions that I have for you today are from my clients actually. So I'm very excited to pick your brain because I feel like this is something that's been around for so long, but not something that's discussed a lot, I feel like. So I'm very excited that we have someone who can really go into all of the depths of what EMDR is.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm happy to answer all your questions. Pick away. Love the energy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I was I was gonna say, maybe just starting with who is EMDR for? But I also want to ask you who it's not for. Because I think that could be a kind of helpful piece too, because I imagine there are just certain times for people where it wouldn't maybe be most appropriate.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, that's a great question. So let's start with who it's for, because that's so easy. Everyone can benefit from EMDR therapy. I'll explain. So I think people think they have to have a very significant trauma to get the benefits of EMDR therapy, but it's absolutely not true. I can give you a basic, basic example of that. So when you go to EMDR therapy, they're gonna ask you what's happening in your life? What's the most distressing things that are happening for you right now? And so when we talk about that, it's not always going to lead back to something that we're gonna list as a big T trauma, like in the clinical book, right? But let me give you a silly example that I can use for myself to help you understand that it can be for anybody. What's the most distressing part of my day or my life, or what's what's really weighing heavy on me? Well, I have a really hard time getting my kids out the door and I yell in the morning. And when I yell in the morning, I then feel awful about myself throughout the day because I lost it. My kids are starting out their day in a way that just makes them sets the tone for them to have an awful day as well. Well, when we do EMDR therapy, a therapist is gonna ask me, what does that make you think about yourself? And when you get to the core of that, the negative cognition I have about myself is maybe that I'm a bad person or I'm not good enough. And where does that come from? And that's where, and I'm getting ahead of myself a bit, but that's where the memory mapping comes in. And that's what brings us back, and that's the work we're going to do. So when I say it's for everybody, maybe you have a really hard time speaking in front of people at work, and maybe that's a really big part of your job, or maybe you have a boss that intimidates you, and it's really hard to approach that boss about a race or a conflict you're having at work, or just speaking to your boss in general. I think with EMDR, there's this idea that it only works with these big T traumas from childhood or some a big thing that happened to you in your current day that would trigger PTSD. And yes, it does work for those things, but it can also work for somebody who works in HR that's afraid to fire somebody, or it can work with anything because what you're doing with EMDR is you're coming back to what you believe about yourself, and then you're going back to the first memory that you have of feeling that way and working through that to remove the distress in your current day. Is that is that confusing? Is there anything I could do to help clarify?

SPEAKER_01:

No, it's it's very clear. I I've just never heard it explained like that before. And I feel like I understand it more now hearing that from you than I ever have in the past.

SPEAKER_02:

So thank you. Oh, you're welcome. So then you ask me, who is this not for? Well, if you're an active addiction, it is not for you. Because you have to have a window of tolerance, there has to be a place where we can work together. Let's say you you are outside your window of tolerance and you don't have the skills to start EMDR. We at least need to be able to do that kind of work before we begin. But if you're an active addiction, you're not here with me right now. So you have to be able to be in the room and do the work to resource before we begin. I'm gonna give you some skills. When you first start EMDR, you're gonna come in. I'm gonna get to know you. I want to know your history. It's almost like a really in-depth intake, like maybe two or three sessions of knowing you. Because I need to assess if you're able to begin EMDR.

SPEAKER_00:

Can I ask a question about that? Well, because I have a question for our clients, right? Because Maggie and I work with eating disorders. And there's so many, obviously, with eating disorders, there's so much trauma a lot of times, big T, little T, all of the things. And so I'm curious because you can't be an active addiction while you go through EMDR. So I'm really curious if somebody with an active disorder goes through EMDR. But technically, they're restricted classes or whatever have those factors are addiction, right? They're not addicted to food, they're not addicted to subscribers, but they're addicted to their acts of go through EMDR. Or is it different with eating disorders where it's like, okay, you might be in your eating disorder, but it's not severe, so you could like I'm wondering for our clientele, like what would the threshold be of present for them or like using for them to be able to go through EMDR?

SPEAKER_02:

I guess I would have to meet with that client to really assess where they are in their eating disorder and figure out how severe it is. Because when I say active addiction in terms of like mood-altering substances, it's because you're not in your right mind. Because you're not able to be present, because you're constantly using and obsessing with the fix. And if you if I felt like my client that's coming to see me with their eating disorder was in that same place where their obsessive thinking was getting in the way of us even being able to do the work, if they were not in a space where they could tolerate doing EMDR, then we would have to be working on giving us some space from those behaviors or lessening the severity of the behaviors for us to be able to do that. I could give you an example of somebody. So I have a client who was abusing cocaine. Okay, not dependents, but abusing cocaine. And I really felt like talk therapy was not working for her. And so I asked her, you have to give yourself some space from the cocaine. What can we do? Because you will benefit so greatly from EMDR. You are carrying a backpack full of bricks. And if we can just give you some space and give you a even if it's two weeks sobriety, we can start this work and we can really take some of these bricks out of your backpack. And she was able to do that. And because it was important to her, because understanding what she can gain was so important. But when we did the EMDR work, we then did it as an intensive because let me explain the difference. So EMDR is typically around 12 sessions. So people come in and they're like, I don't want to do this forever. This is gonna be awful. Well, EMDR typically lasts around 12 sessions from the time we meet where I get to know you to the end. Now, not all clients go through the 12 because sometimes they come in, now they like therapy, and they're like, but as I just want to talk about my mom. I'm like, okay, we'll talk about your mom today. Or my family's driving me crazy. I can't do the MDR today. And you know, we have to figure out, are you avoiding that work? Or some clients just need to come in and process what's going on in their current day. They don't want to do the EMDR because they've never been in therapy before and they like it. And so they don't want to do the reprocessing that day. So sometimes we'll skip it. Or I do have clients sometimes that are like they really like therapy and they're like, okay, I want to do the EMDR, but I also want to process with you. Can I see you twice a week while we're in the EMDR part? So that happens sometimes too. Okay. Because if you don't start the reprocessing from the minute you walk in the door, you really don't get a lot of things a lot done in a session because the session's 50 minutes. By the time you come in, you sit down, there's a check-in that you have when you are doing EMDR to see where the memory is. So you use a target memory when you do EMDR. So, like I said, with my example of myself, where you know, I'm mad at my kids in the morning. It's really distressing to me. I weighs heavy on me throughout the day. The thing I think about myself is the negative cognition is I'm not good enough, or I'm not a good mom, or I'm not a good person, whatever that is. We're gonna do the memory mapping and the MDR therapy to find the first time I felt that way. That takes that takes a little bit of tweaking. It's tedious because I don't really have that memory on my sleeve right now. It takes some work for me to go back and really figure out when the first time I can recall. And how we recall memories is we tap into our body. My therapist would say to me, Ashley, how do you feel in the morning in your body when you are triggered that way? When that comes up for you, when you're feeling that anxiety, that frustration, that irritation, where does it land in your body? We use the body to figure out the first time I felt that way. Tapping in, when's the first time your body felt like that? First time I have a memory of when I'm 14, maybe I'm 11. Now all of a sudden I'm like, you know what? One time when I was down the shore, when I was four years old, I can remember being on the boardwalk and somebody said, you know, and all of a sudden I'm giving you all these different memories, and we're gonna find a target. So every time you come into your next reprocessing session, we're gonna check in on that memory. It's really amazing work because sometimes the memory fades, sometimes the memory lost color, sometimes the memory changed. It doesn't even look like that anymore. Sometimes they can't even see it anymore. It's not eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. I don't know if that that serves you because that movie is about like my clients coming and they think I'm going to erase their memory. I don't want to. Number one. Number two, I can't, but it loses so much of the weight that it actually gets distorted. It looks different, it's hard to even access sometimes. That's when you know EMDR is working. When you're like, but you have to do this basic check-in every time. It's a scale. So again, we're doing the scale with someone like me. I'm chatting it up. I'm telling you everything about how it changed in the last week. We didn't even start reprocessing yet. Then you're like, okay, so how do you feel in your body now? Now I'm telling you all about my body and what's, you know, it could take a while. So the point is when you're coming in for EMDR, it can last 12 sessions, 10, 14, depending on the client, how much they're getting out of it, how much they're sharing. Sometimes we have blocking beliefs that make EMDR really hard for us. Everyone, everyone's different, but it's not long-term therapy, is the point.

SPEAKER_00:

So when it comes to so I like two questions, because as you will learn, and as I always say, I can never just have one question. So what's the difference between like EMDR and EMDR intensive? And because I feel like to Maggie, correct me if my memory is really off. But when we also interviewed an EMDR therapist a few years ago, I believe she said that there's like a script that an EMDR therapist follows in the sections.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, let me let me help you with that. I have I get what you're saying. So this is my beautiful binder that matches the aesthetic of my office. And again, like I told you, Maggie, I'm so proud of certain things, like my headphones today. This very proud. So I laminated the pages, and this is how EMDR goes, okay? But you've met me for what, 20 minutes now?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, this is just where we begin. Because before I go into the difference between EMDR and EMDR intensive, the thing is the hard part of EMDR as a therapist is that you can't say that much. It's not like this. It's if you can't. I don't think I'd be able to do it. I talk way too much. No, no, no. You could. Because if once you see the benefits and once you see what your client can gain from it, mom, because their brain is doing the work. You are simply a guide, and you are simply there to make sure that we stay where we're supposed to. Bring us back to the memory if needed. And if any blocking or barriers come up to help them work through those because their brain is comfortable like this, it doesn't want to change. It's dysfunctional, and this is how we work, and we don't want things to change and get better. And when they start to get better, it's like, wait a minute, is it really better? You know, so am I deserving of this to be better? So when those things come up, my job is to work through those things with them in that moment, but in the most succinct way, which is hard for a Jersey girl who's chatty just like you. But and also when people are talking about these things that have happened to them or what it brings up for them, it's heavy. And there's this part of you as a therapist that wants to be like, wow, tell me more about that. But you can't. Sometimes they don't even have to describe all of it. That's what I tell my clients a lot too. That's part of the preparation work in EMDR, is really explaining EMDR. The way I did to you in the beginning, where you're like, that's crystal clear. That's how I explain it all the time. And I think I over-explained, but I'd rather overexplain because once we're in it, I'm not gonna do that. I only remind you, hey, this is what I was talking about, this is what that is. I don't want to have to get into all of it because it interrupts the work. So I really try to prepare everyone as much as possible, but everyone's brains do different things, everyone sees things differently. But what's important for you to know before again, and I didn't lose track on the EMDR intensive, I know I have to explain. But when someone's describing a memory to you and they don't want to go into it, they don't have to. It can clear out of their neurotransmitter without being descriptive. I I tell them before we start, because they say like it's like a moving train, EMDR. Let's say, so the way I do EMDR is uh with the reprocessing, is I use bilateral stimulation by holding these two little vibration, little paddles in your hand, and you're so your eyes can be shut, because that's how I liked it when I was a client. But I give my clients all the options, but I like my eyes to be closed. Some people like the light, they like their eyes to be open. I'll I'm open to however it works for somebody. You can do it with your fingers. That's how I do it when it's a virtual client, unless they buy the little vibration panels, only lasts around 35 seconds, but it can feel like a lifetime when you're in one of the reprocessing cycles. So if they don't want to see it, describe it, whatever it is, I just tell them put that memory on the train and let it pass by. It already filtered through the neurotransmitter. We don't have to get into the the meat and potatoes of it. Sometimes they have to they want to, or it's important for them to open that door and go in that room. And I, my job is to remind them you're safe now, you're here, you're not there. You can let it pass by if you want. That's the importance of having someone else with you while you're doing this kind of reprocessing. To remind you you're not there. That was 35 seconds, you're okay. And you know, as a psychotherapist, you really want to go in there. But it's not, that's not what you're supposed to do when you're doing the MDR work.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think that's what I was thinking of in regards to the script. That there's something that you follow in regards to like the clinical follow of like questions to ask or like the steps to take within EMDR because you can't ask questions. And if they do like bring something up, you can't go deeper because you then have like the stages and phases that you have to follow within the EMDR. I think I would go bonkers.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, but I do have clients that will say to me after that session, can we talk on Thursday? I wanna, I wanna go through that. Like go through that. And it all helps in EMDR. So that's not wrong. But to tell you about EMDR intensives now, to tell you the difference. First, I want to say, because this is important, when you're working with somebody for EMDR, whether it's weekly or intensives, they can be seeing their regular therapist regularly.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not stealing anyone's client. Like they're coming to me to do this work. That's the work we can do. I have clients who do it in a hybrid where we do one neurotransmitter with the negative cognition and memory, target memory associated with it. Then we go back to our regular schedule. Then we start another one when it comes up as it comes up. You know, I have long-term clients, but I also have people who come in and they're like, I love my therapist, but I want to do EMDR because I heard from a celebrity, right, Maggie, like you said. Or I my therapist thinks it's a good idea and they're not trained. Or I saw this on TikTok and I think it's really interesting, and I want to, I want to give it a whirl, right? Everybody has different reasons they come in. Some people stay with me, some people don't. Some people visit this area, my area for the weekend to see me in person, some people do it virtually. Intensives, but it can be done in a few different ways. And I'm learning as I go as well, because everybody's different, everybody can handle different things. Ideally, I'll meet you once or twice, virtually or in person, to assess. I have to always assess. I have to get your history, I have to make sure you have that window of tolerance. I and if they're working with a therapist, I'll talk to that therapist to make sure we're all on the same page. So we're supporting our client the best that we can all together. And then it would either be during the week or on the weekend, depending. I prefer two days. So then we start the EMTR work. So we're going to create something called a SafeCom Place. Do you guys know what that is? Okay. So it's almost like I'm not great at science. I've sat through all the science of this, but I'll make it really simple. Okay. You have an open neurotransmitter because the other neurotransmitters are full of all the negative things you think about yourself. And when you do EMDR, you're taking one negative neurotransmitter and you're opening it up and you're letting everything filter out. But before we start, we take an open neurotransmitter that's just like boo-boo. I'm sure it's not. And it's just sitting there and it's waiting for something positive to be put in. And that's what we do. It's a different cadence on your bilateral stimulation. We're going to do a very in-depth visualization of a place that feels safe and calm to you, where you feel it in your body. And we're going to be using the slow bilateral stimulation to implant that into an empty neurotransmitter so that you have somewhere to go in your brain if a flash of something comes to you in between sessions, or you have a bad dream. Sometimes people don't necessarily have bad dreams, I'm going to be honest. It's typically vivid dreams, it's typically weird dreams in between sessions. I wouldn't say anyone has had a nightmare. Another thing you should know about EMDR, you can't do any harm. You can maybe not get as great of a result, but you can't do harm by doing EMDR. And that's so great for our clients to know. Because they're like, wait a minute, once we start this, what's going to happen here? Nothing bad's going to happen. What could go wrong is you don't get the right negative cognition with the right target memory. I want you to think about it like if you want to get a splinter clean out, you have to have the right negative cognition with the right target memory so it comes clean out. If you don't have that, you're going to get some of the splinter out. But you're still not doing harm. So that's important to know. So now you come in for this intensive and we start the two sessions, three sessions, whatever is needed to assess you to make sure we can begin EMTR. If you can't, I'm going to be honest. I'm not trying to put anyone in a position that's gonna things are gonna be harder for them. This is meant to make things easier. So they come in, we do the safe calm place. I'm gonna tell you something. Some people can't do the safe calm place. They can't do it. They're just like their brains will not allow that. To even think about being safe is so challenging. I'll have someone doing a safe calm place and I make sure that it's a place where nothing bad has ever happened. All of a sudden, there's grandpa. Why is he here? He's saying you can't be here. Or we're, you know, I don't know, the the redwoods, and all of a sudden there's someone there telling you, get out, right? It's like, what? Why did that happen? So then we have to work through that. So it seems like it'd be like bam, bam, bam, bam, you know, and then we get to reprocessing it and it's a nice bow, but it's not like that. Our brains are protecting us from this kind of healing because it's so new and not everyone can allow themselves to go there. And so it takes time, and there has to be breaks in like in put in the day as well. So we create the safe complex. I teach them different techniques for if they feel dysregulated, you know, we're doing butterfly tapping. I'm teaching them all different kinds of breathing.

SPEAKER_03:

To make sure we get that in beforehand.

SPEAKER_02:

Because if we don't get that in beforehand, there's no way they're taking that in as they leave. Because that first day, no matter what, your the channel is not going to be completely empty because that's what you want. You want everything to clear through that neurotransmitter. So after we do the safe complex, the resourcing and explaining in depth the process of EMDR, then we're going to be doing the memory mapping and the negative cognition work, right? This is gonna take time. I work with an EMDR master through Mdria, that's like the board for EMDR, and I meet with her two hours a month to make sure my negative cognitions are correct, to make sure things are going the way that they should, because getting the negative cognition is one of the hardest things. Sometimes it changes. People have to be open to that. The target memory, sometimes that changes as well. Like you're doing the work, and I'm like, you know, you keep going back to this memory. This one seems to be the one. And so we shift our work. I know it sounds complicated what I'm saying, but once you get the hang of it, even for my clients, in the beginning, they're like, This is this is really complicated. But as we go through it, they're like, Oh, yeah, I got it. Okay, all right, now I know what to do for the next one. So the memory mapping takes takes time, and the memory mapping is really triggering. I'm basically saying to you, can you tell me every single time you've ever felt this awful feeling in your body? And then we're gonna figure out the what's the worst one or the earliest one, you know, or when I'm doing the negative cognition, they're like, I'm having a really hard time finding the net what I think about myself. I'm like, okay. So I go to my beautiful book and I'm like, let me read you some, okay? Let me read you some, guys. Ready? I'm not good enough. I don't deserve love. I'm not lovable, I'm a bad person, I'm worthless, I cannot trust anyone, I cannot protect myself, I'm in danger, I'm not safe, I'm going to die. I should have done something else, I should have known better. These are these statements, I'm reading them like a kid's book, but they're hard to hear. Yeah, they're hard to say.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I name that. I say, I'm about to read you the worst words, but I'm reading them to you because if we get it right, you're not going to feel this way anymore. So I'm sorry, I I'm sorry I have to read this to you, but it's gonna get you to a place where this won't this won't be true anymore. And so they'll say, Well, those five were pretty. So now it's like, okay, so these five, how do we choose the right one? Because I want to get that splinter out. I want this to work for you. So it this in the intensive work, this is what takes time. We didn't even start reprocessing yet, right? So, and we have to take breaks because it's heavy.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I happen to work near the center of Madison, which is really beautiful. So sometimes my clients need to go take a walk, they need to go grab something to eat. Maybe I go get it for them and they lay down on my couch, whatever they need. Yeah, then we start reprocessing. I typically don't do longer than 50 minutes of reprocessing without a break. You don't know. I you have you done the MDR? I don't want to assume. Have either of you done the MDR?

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

It's intense. You're you want to keep going, but it's really hard. I want you to think about it. I'm like, I love metaphors, so just not gonna stop. Once you get it right and you turn on the sink, it's like, you know, it's like you it you know how you know the other metaphor I use that really helps my clients? It's like when you're doing an intensive, and you know, when you're at the water park and that bucket, you're like it's filling and filling and filling and filling, and when it goes down, it like knocks all the kids out, like everyone falls. Okay, that bucket has been filling and filling and filling and filling and filling, and now it's pouring out, it's too fast, it's knocking everybody out, and so what we're gonna do in EMDR is get that bucket level down because the overflow is just it's it's it's harmful to everybody. And so let's say in the intensive, we do the safe complex. We I teach you some coping skills for breathing and tapping and things you need for later. And then we find the most distressing circumstance of your present day. We find the negative cognition you believe about yourself, then we do the memory mapping, then we start reprocessing. Well, we just did a lot today. You just got you just got two, three months of therapy in one day. That's wild. Because, okay, so now the bucket is more level. You come in the next day. Or for some people, they're like, I can't do the next day. I want it to be the next Saturday, we do a full day, or next Tuesday I do the full day again. I need a few days. Whatever they want. Some people are only here for a weekend, they're like, let's go. You know, so the next day they come in, we start reprocessing again because now we don't have to do all that work, but we check in, right? So the first 45 is typically, whoa, this is how my body felt last night. This is because I'm gonna prepare you for that as well. This is how my body felt. I'm tired. I had headaches last night. I didn't feel that great. I actually felt physically sick to my stomach. I prepared them for all of that. I needed to lie down. I I had to go to bed early. And I say, okay, but think about all that just came out. You just like took that backpack and you're like, I'm throwing that brick, I'm throwing that brick, I'm throwing that brick, I'm throwing it, and your body's like, wait a minute, that was in my skin for so long. I don't feel good without that backpack. Like, I don't feel I physically don't feel well. So now you come in the next day, and now the bucket's level, but as we go down, now I'm getting to that ghost stuff that's been there for so long. Because now you trust the process, you trust me. And it's hard work, it's very hard work, and your brain's gonna do a lot to avoid it. Yeah, but the point is, by the end of the one or two days, yeah, it's pricey, yeah, it's gut wrenching and heartbreaking and truly hard work, but you just got six months of trauma work done, and you get to be lighter now. At the end of a neurotransmitter, like a cycle of the full EMDR where you really work through, you truly don't believe that about yourself anymore. Truly. And then we're going to do work, which we can do virtually or in an intensive or afterwards, however, you however we use our time. It really depends on how much time someone has. Where we're now, so my little example of this pen. Whoever knew that this pen would come in this much handy in the EMCR work? I I don't know. But I just wanted a gold pen to match my office. So um, but now we cleared it all out, right? So now we're gonna do put in install the positive cognition about yourself, what you want to believe instead. And that is something you choose in the beginning, but it changes sometimes. It can change. And after we do that work, now we're going to really be planning for how we're gonna deal with those triggers in our present day. So that's where more of the talk work comes in. Like, how are we going to manage when the triggers come up now that I've believed this about myself? How do I want to do this differently? But that kind of work can either be done in the intensive or in a session afterwards. It's the reprocessing and preparing for the reprocessing and then the installation of the positive belief that takes the time. But the intensives are beautiful because I can keep seeing you every week, Jess, while I do something like this on a weekend or you know, I can not be in therapy at all, do this work and really benefit from it. I'm coming into something that I know is going to help me. How often does we go into anything knowing it's going to work? So that's the benefit of the intensive is that I can, or I find my lifelong therapist in me, and they're now we start this work and we do, we can keep doing EMDR as we go along. I have clients who see me weekly that throw in intensives when they need them, but they also know how it works so it can go a little bit faster in the oh, I already know what my negative cognition is. I'm like, okay, good. And but because it becomes the language of your life. My clients aren't therapists, but they certainly can tell you everything I just shared with you about EMTR. And that makes me proud because that means I did the preparation work correctly.

SPEAKER_00:

So is the intensive part and like why you identify them as intensive is because of the length of the therapy process. Okay. So what's the length of the day? The length of the day. So what is the length of the day for nor for like I don't know how to say like normal EMDR? Oh, you're just doing normal 50-minute sessions. In intensive with EMDR, but then the intensive is how long?

SPEAKER_02:

So I can give you an example. Last one I did, I think we went 10 to 3 the first day. We could have went longer, but we went for three.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah. That's 10 to 4. Is that five hours? Is that how many hours that is? What's that? I mean, we we we we we can do longer. Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You mean You're so funny. You mean to tell me that you have clients that are sitting there process I'm getting emotional. Five hours?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, they're not reprocessing the whole five hours. I don't know why they're gonna be able to do that. Oh that's a lot of things. It I know it's a lot. I tear up when they're sharing this because whether I just met you or I've cared about you for all this time, for you to be telling me these things I never knew that you forgot about or you locked in that closet and you forgot, you just didn't want to touch it. And now you trust me enough to hand it to me and say, I don't want to carry it anymore. I can give you five hours, I can give you nine hours, I can give you whatever you need because you're gonna feel better after this. So if this is gonna give you six months of trauma work, let's go. Because you don't have to feel like this anymore. It is a beautiful gift. I changed my practice name. My practice name used to be called blooming intuition because I'm all about you knowing best. And what's blocking you from your intuition is how I make my treatment plan. It's still very much a part of my practice, but I couldn't take everyone coming in, like, my mom said I need therapy, my husband said I need therapy, my wife said I need therapy. My I can't take it because it is the most beautiful gift. It is so amazing that people can go and get help to work on the ways that they feel about themselves and know they're gonna leave feeling better. That's beautiful. So if I'm gonna do 10 to 4 and you're gonna leave lighter, let's go.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm here. So do you know when to when too long is too long? Like, is that a saying? Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then my clients start to know, and I'm so proud of them because they go, Hey Ash, I think I need to break now. And I'm like, wow, you feel safe enough to tell me you need a break? Like, that's when you're talking about the things you're talking about, like that's beautiful, yeah. And then they come in and they they come in the next day or the next week, and they say, I'm ready to do another intensive because I can't, or their skin looks different, their skin looks different, their face looks different. So lately I've been telling clients to do intensives, hey, can you take a selfie and then take the selfie? Because I want you to see how you're you actually look different after you let go of all this.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's beautiful work.

SPEAKER_00:

So, how does the work also? work, I guess. When you like say someone say your trauma is like, you know, with a person, right? And that you're seeing that person all the time. How does that then work?

SPEAKER_02:

So okay, so let's think about it like this. First we can use my example of the boss. And we can we let's start there. You're going to shift how you are at work. And it's actually great that you're exposed to that person because now that's where you're going to see the change. Most people that are actually the skeptics they see the change they see that EMDR works when they're actually triggered. And not everybody gets the opportunity to be tricked to be triggered all the time. So I mean lucky for me I am because I have my kids every morning but you know you know but not everybody gets to see that person. Sometimes that person died. So they just know that they feel lighter and that's enough. But they don't have to carry that anymore. But for somebody who is working in a situation where their coworker is just like their critical aunt yeah that's a great situation because they can know they changed they don't see themselves the same way they're going to handle it different now. Sometimes people's positive cognition is I have choices now. And it's really empowering. Yeah it's a good one Jess I can see that and your therapist like it's it's what a gift I have choices now. Yeah. And it really changes the way you navigate in the world. Now let's talk about big T traumas seeing people that I would say it's the same thing you know the negative cognition I should have done something with the positive cognition of like I am safe now or I I was just a kid and this wasn't my fault. And then seeing them and then in the work that we do realize hey all you adults here why didn't you do something because I was a kid and I've been blaming myself this whole time it's going to change everything and that's where the psychotherapy comes in right so if you have a therapist you're going to do that work. If I'm your psychotherapist we're going to do that work. We're going to say all right now how do we manage the fact that all these adults around you that you never held responsible they let you down too how do we process that do we want to bring them in I would love that I always tell my clients just bring anyone in any day don't even tell me just bring them in it's like what what that's fun let's go you know finally get to see them we get to talk about it let's go but you know like if you I I just feel like that's where we can support our clients after EMDR. The family work the couples work well wait a minute because now I realize that my wife reminds me exactly like of my father now what do I do? Right? Like that kind of work so that's where we as clinicians keep going. So the EMDRs maybe 12 sessions but the work that comes after because now I have a whole different thing to manage but I'm lighter and I can manage it. I'm sh I can do this now. I can take that on now because I'm not carrying that backpack anymore. So I can do it. It really changes how I practice yeah it it's really incredible. But I will say I mean I meet with this high level EMDR supervisor for two hours a month. I also work with somebody to help me with IFS once a month because IFS to me is EMDR's cousin.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah no we we did an episode entirely on IFS a few years ago.

SPEAKER_02:

It's incredible and it's very tedious work. That is to me so challenging uh to understand and you think EMDR I'm like IFS is but they're cousins because we created the parts because of the negative cognitions and the parts are still there. So now we can tell the parts you're safe and how do we how does that work in our bodies because a lot of this has to do with how we're feeling in our bodies which is a very different way to practice. Yeah. Constantly guess your client how they feel in their body I don't know about you I wasn't trained that way.

SPEAKER_00:

See it's so funny because that's one of the questions that I always ask clients. It's like what are you feeling in your body? Because that's just me as a person I'm all because I'm as you can tell I'm a very emotional very like feely person. So I've always just been very body focused. And so it's just so funny because some of the language that I use in my day to day is what I'm obviously I'm not doing with I'm not going to say that but like it's so funny that like without that scope and I because I don't think people recognize how much our body holds on to trauma. Right? Like I remember when I was going for my I remember the speaker was saying how when you're going through a trauma your body holds on to it when your prefrontal cortex essentially dies during the traumatic event and that's where it just comes into play. If your brain isn't processing what's happening it's just your body. Your body is holding on to all that and it doesn't know what to do with it. And so it's just so interesting that people don't realize that our bodies are just they're incredible in so many different ways but like you're feeling everything and you're so afraid of things because your body is so heavy and you're feeling all these things because your body's trying to communicate with you but you don't know how to speak the language and your brain isn't connecting there.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man yeah and then you have to like simplify this for everybody and I have to simplify it for myself otherwise I'm I'm like drowning in all the science of this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

When really as people who are helping other people we naturally speak in a lot of these ways. I've been speaking in IFS forever not even knowing what IFS was.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But it doesn't mean I can say that I am trained or I I I'm not even informed yet because I there's so much to it. But I just feel like it's important to know that this training is never ending for EMDR therapists because I think our clients might not understand how important it is for us to keep going. There's so this is really heavy work and getting it right for them means we have to keep getting trained because there's new things that come out all the time. When this was first developed it was for Vietnam War vets which is incredible because everyone deserves this care. But at that time they didn't know that. They thought it was just for those big T traumas that just happened. Now we know that's not true. But there is a PTSD protocol I don't know if you know about this. So there's if like like a hurricane happens or shooting awful but if these things happen there's a protocol for if it happens within a certain amount of days and high level EMDR therapists will go out to scenes and work with people who experience a traumatic event in that moment and there's a totally different protocol. Okay. I just think that's interesting. Yeah and because I'll have clients who come in who just got in a car accident just that minute they're like actually I just got in a car accident and I will start that protocol with them. Like over the phone? And it's really in person. No they're like I got in a car accident on the way here I'm shaken you know and not like listen if you got in an accident to go to the hospital it's different. I but they'll come to my office they're like I'm late because somebody re-rented me you know like or and and I'll start the protocol with them. I had a client who because I I work with teams as well I remember them telling me something they were like playing manhunt and like a guy was in the woods and she was terrified. She's like I I can't I can't get out of my body and we did that I did that protocol with her for if you just like witness such a traumatic event and it helped so fascinating blowing my mind it really is and I said I don't know anything Maggie.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know anything so you might like you know what I mean yeah no no it's so interesting and and it's so clear how passionate you are about this which is amazing. I know we need to wrap up I do I I've been patiently awaiting though I really want to ask you this question.

SPEAKER_02:

You can ask me anything and I have time.

SPEAKER_01:

Go ahead okay well so Ashley and I were talking before we started recording and I listened to a lot of celebrity hosted podcasts. And I feel like years ago there was a lot of talk of just like push for talk therapy right how great talk therapy is. And now I feel like in the past couple months I've noticed so many celebrities talking about EMDR and I'm just curious of like your take on that and and are you seeing that kind of like ripple effect down to clients being like I heard the celebrity talking about it and that brought me in. I'm so curious about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah I think they're doing a lot of good by talking about it. The most the most referenced celebrity I have is Miley Cyrus. I don't know about you Maggie do you hear about a different celebrity talking about it?

SPEAKER_01:

So I've heard Taylor Lautner and his wife talking about it. I've heard on like the biofiles like I I listen to a lot of I watch a lot of reality TV so I a lot of like reality TV podcasts. So I feel like I'm just hearing it left and right.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay so I hear it a lot from Miley Cyrus. There's like one specific interview where she actually talks about like putting the memory coming by like a train which is means she was probably going to someone who I went to the same EMDR like training as because not everybody has the same language. But interesting I I think that she was doing like a ketamine therapy with that because the way she described it sounds like there was like some sort of microdosing with a therapist you know it's ketamine assisted I mean but I I think she because she was seeing herself in the womb of her grandmother so which is amazing and I think it's so cool and I would love to witness somebody getting ketamine assisted EMDR because that would just make me I would nerd and that would make me so excited. But yeah I think it's amazing anything to get anyone in the room for therapy is a plus for me because of the stigma associated with it especially in the climate of our country right now. So anyone that can get someone to go and work on whatever they're carrying in their backpack it doesn't need to be as heavy as other people's for it to be heavy. We all deserve to have a lighter load life is really hard. Having that kind of support is so foreign for so many and it can feel so empowering and validating and whatever we can do to get people in the room I'm here for it. And because EMDR is so hard to understand I mean you two are working with people in this setting every day and I'm explaining something to you and you do a mental health podcast and you're like oh it's the first time I get it how can we help our clients to understand that this would be beneficial to them because I will talk about it and I'll say the price and they're like meanwhile our skincare and we pay for all these cookie things or our Botox and you know and then it's like no but that's way too expensive. I'm like but I'm telling you you're gonna get months of treatment and you're gonna feel better and you're like now for some people the reality is it's just out of out of budget. I get that our economy is insane but for other people they just don't see the priority of it. They don't understand it's one more thing they can't afford and how I guess I'm asking you guys too like how do we get people to understand what it is and the benefits of it like even for you two you just sat with me. How do you explain this to your clients now? I just talked to you for an hour it's so hard.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean we tell them to listen to this episode honestly because you did such an excellent job explaining it all and I feel like I'm taking so much away from this episode. I imagine everybody listening is and I think you're right that anything that can get people in the door you know is so important. So thank you so much for for everything you shared today and it's yeah it's been really really impactful.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome so happy I met both of you I love your podcast. Thank you I love what you're doing. It's so important I listen to so many episodes I love hearing what other people have to say in our field I love sharing it. There's no way I could know enough I have to share it all even just with eating disorders just learning about from both ends what you share in each episode is so important to me. So I thank you as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Just before we end could you just tell people where they could find you like website Instagram anything like that. Sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Udeserve therapy calm find me reach out to me I'm here you don't have to do this alone it's you can do this virtually you could do this in person. We'll make it as safe as possible you don't have to carry this anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you and we'll put that website in the show notes for the episode too so for anybody listening go check out Ashley's website and again Ashley thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you have a beautiful day thank you and thanks guys and we will catch you in our next one bye bye thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Nourish and Empower Podcast. We hope this episode helped you redefine reclaim and restore what health means to you if this episode resonated with you please subscribe leave a rating and comment and share with anyone else who may feel will benefit